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the rangers are finally dumping salary and they've finally realized that they cant buy the cup...

whats funny is that they got Jagr, then they realised it, LOL
Jagr is gona be playing with a bunch of 3rd liners after the rangers are through trading

him and his 11 million-a-year-salary are staying put in NYR
No one wants to deal with Jagr and his lucrative contract

I find this sooo funny, what the hell was sather thinking gettin jagr, they needed a good d-man not another washed up player

well thats my 2 cents..
 

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You know, being a Canucks fan, I think I'll refrain from disrespecting any GM with 5 Cup rings on his nightstand. Do I need to remind Leaf fans that Sather has lost more Cup Finals than the Leafs have appeared in since 1967?
I think it has all been part of a plan to disabuse the Ranger fanbase and New York media once and for all that the way to becoming a lasting contender in the NHL is not by buying up all the best talent available. Now Slats can really roll up his sleeves and start building a strong Ranger organization. I'll predict that before Sather leaves the Rangers, he has another Cup ring on that nightstand.
 

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Jagr and Holik aren't bad building blocks. With all the young talent they are assembling and a couple of INTELLIGENT free agent aquisitions including a top notch Goalie they might be a force next season(if there is one).

Since this is a Rangers topic I'll move it to the Rangers section. If it turns into a bash fest perhaps it'll end up in the trash talk section.

BTW Washington is picking up almost half of the contract. Of all the Ranger deals it is one of the better ones. Anson Carter for Jagr. Now that is a no brainer.
 

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Jagr
Jagr is a scoring machine every year in the NHL, no matter where he plays. Only in his first two seasons did have average less than a point per game. Go look up his career stats. in 18 games since arriving he has 20 points (10 goals). He has proven he can thrive in the pressure pot of NY, he's real happy to be here. The Rangers got him for only a $2 Mill increase to their payroll... so what's the mystery? He will be a major pillar of the future Ragers.

He's not washed up... yes he's getting far into his career, but he still has the skills, much like Brian Leetch. Jagr just turned 32 which is NOT over the hill - remember he came into the league young. He just scored his 1,300 point the other day. If he plays healthy till he's 40, you might see him pass Howe and Messier too.

"Buying Cups"
Rangers deserve all the abuse they get - we all realize that, and they get more abuse from their own fans and media than anyone else... BUT I get annoyed when people say "The Rangers are finally realizing you can't buy a Cup" But guess what: It HAS worked for some other teams like Detroit who had the highest payroll this season up till the Jagr deal. And since getting Lang and the Rangers salary dump, I am sure the Wings have now re-claimed the highest payroll honor. Yes we know last year was an embarrassing first round exit... but how many cups has Detroit won over the last 7-8 years with their big payroll and numerous veteran free agent signings? Now they are the strongest team in the west... yet again.

Did Detroit "buy" their cups??? If you answered yes then uhhhh... it DOES work on occasion.

Of course successful teams like NJ and Ottawa have proven that high payroll in not necessary - bit it's not a detriment either. It's just a high payroll.
 

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bigbigjim said:
Jagr and Holik aren't bad building blocks. With all the young talent they are assembling and a couple of INTELLIGENT free agent aquisitions including a top notch Goalie they might be a force next season(if there is one).

Since this is a Rangers topic I'll move it to the Rangers section. If it turns into a bash fest perhaps it'll end up in the trash talk section.

BTW Washington is picking up almost half of the contract. Of all the Ranger deals it is one of the better ones. Anson Carter for Jagr. Now that is a no brainer.
BINGO!!
 

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The Red Wings do more reloading than buying. Remember, they built a strong foundation with a team that was chalked full of their own picks and players acquired from talent they drafted and developed themselves, before they won Cups in 97 and 98. From there, instead of waiting for the system to replace what gets stale or old, or instead of trading a lot of their core for high picks like the Habs did for years, they simply either traded their own developed talent when they had to for established players that fit their need, or used free agency, which has only been around in the NHL for 10 to 15 years, to reload. And hardly any of the free agents they have added were signed for top dollar, or for money that was ridiculously out of whack with what the market stipulated they were worth. The talent they do sign are usually veterns that are attracted by their respect for the organization and its commitment to winning above anything else. And the young players from their own system continue to be among the elite.
So no, I don't think the Red Wings 'bought' their Cups. I think they've earned them. And I think comparing what the Rangers have done over the last 2 or 3 years to what the Red Wings have done is an insult to the entire Red Wing organization.
 

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gordfish said:
The Red Wings do more reloading than buying.
You lost me already... What's the difference, did they pick up Hatcher, Hull, Robitaille, Chelios, Shanahan, Hasek etc etc. for FREE??

Remember, they built a strong foundation with a team that was chalked full of their own picks and players acquired from talent they drafted and developed themselves, before they won Cups in 97 and 98. From there, instead of waiting for the system to replace what gets stale or old, or instead of trading a lot of their core for high picks like the Habs did for years, they simply either traded their own developed talent when they had to for established players that fit their need, or used free agency, which has only been around in the NHL for 10 to 15 years, to reload.
Again with the reload/buy distinction. The Wings have had the highest payroll in the league most of this season, That's a fact, call it "reloading" if you want - that doesn't change anything. When they "reloaded" once again for Lang last week, they gave up some cheap prospect and a few draft picks, including a first rounder this year. That's exactly what the Rangers have done a lot of over recent years but everybody calls it "trying to buy a good team", not "reloading"

The Rangers also do all of the above that you described... Have had incredible success with players that were drafted and developed by themselves. They have also traded their own established players many times to get guys in that fits their needs.

And hardly any of the free agents they have added were signed for top dollar, or for money that was ridiculously out of whack with what the market stipulated they were worth.
So are you saying the wings have no one on their roster that's a wee bit over-paid? (I think mr Hull might disagree with you) A player's worth is nothing more than the dollar amount that someone is willing to pay that player at the given time of negotiation. If there's two or more teams interested, the principles of supply and demand will drive that price higher. Sometimes to the point where people think it's too much to pay, but it happens every day, not just in hockey but in real life.

The talent they do sign are usually veterns that are attracted by their respect for the organization and its commitment to winning above anything else. And the young players from their own system continue to be among the elite.
So no, I don't think the Red Wings 'bought' their Cups. I think they've earned them.
I agree, that was the point of my original post, that no team "buys" a cup whether they have the highest or lowest payroll - you just have to go out and earn it on the ice. There's no price tag on it.

And I think comparing what the Rangers have done over the last 2 or 3 years to what the Red Wings have done is an insult to the entire Red Wing organization.
I'm not trying to insult you or the Red Wings... I apologize if you took it that way. There's other teams too that play the same game. But you apparently don't want to see something which is clear to me... the only difference between the Rags and Wings is that The Rangers have been horribly managed and coached over recent years, and have made some awful deals... as a result things really bottomed out (apparently they have interneal problems with the organization also) , and they gotta go start over now. Detroit on the other hand has remained well managed, made good FA pickups, and kept things on track.
 

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When the Red Wings won the Stanley Cup in 1997, 17 of the player names that went on the Cup were Red Wing draft choices. There were exactly 0 free agent signings.
When they repeated in 98, they had 17 of their draftees, and 0 free agents.
By 2002, the had signed Manny Legace, Brett Hull and Luc Robitaille free agents. By this year they've signes Hatcher, Thomas and Joseph. None of which were signed for anything more than what the market dictated.
Shanahan was acquired for Primeau.
Maltby was acquired for Dan McGillis.
Vernon was acquired for Steve Chiasson
Chelios was acquired for Anders Eriksson and 2 first round picks.
Hasek was acquired for Slava Kozlov, a first round pick and futures.
Schneider was acquired for Maxim Kuznetsov and two second round picks.
When I see the Rangers pick up Carter and Poti for Dvorak and Cross, I say its good trade for the Rangers. When I see them pick up Jagr for Carter, I say its a good trade for the Rangers.
When I see the Rangers sign Holik, Kasparitis, Lefebves, Malakhov, and Messier, all for way, way more than what the market dictates they are worth, I say they are trying to buy success.
And let me tell you something about Brett Hull. As much as I can't stand the guy, he's been one of the NHL's most prolific goal scores of all time. For which the Wings are paying him 5 million. Just what are the Rangers giving third line centre Holik 9 million for?
Look, I'm a Canucks fan. I also happen to have a lot of respect for Glen Sather, so you didn't insult me. I'm simply pointing out that the Rangers and the Red Wings are currently on the complete opposite sides of the spectrum, and that there is a clear difference between reloading a strong foundation and trying to buy that foundation outright.
The Red Wings are simply a poor comparison to justify or defend the Rangers with.
 

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Well they did an outstanding job back then, but according to the official Red Wings site, I see ony 9 names on their roster that were drafted by them. so that strong foundation is looking more and more "bought" every year.

Shanahan was aquired for more than Primeau. Don't forget Paul Coffey and a the 1st round draft pick. (there was another guy (Glynn) that came with Shanahan too. You other listings show a lot of first and second round draft picks being given away over the history of the 'reloads'.

As great as it was how they won back to back cups with so much home grown talent, The wings of 2004 likely have a re-building phase in their future. They remind me of the Rangers of the early and mid 90's. I am not trying to "defend" the Rangers - I say openly on this forums all the time that they are an absolute disgrace, it just bothers me that it seems they are the only ones ever mentioned for spending money and picks to result in a "Win Now" mentality. Detroit is doing it. St. Louis is doing it.

Hull was among the best goal scorer in the league for years, but hasn't broken 40 goals in like 6 - 7 years, Since joining the Wings he's averaging about 30 goals per season. He hasn't reached 100 points in 12 years. Why he makes 5 million is between him and his agent and Wings management. Maybe he could command more on the open market, maybe not. I realize the game has changed and that hurts his numbers. I just think he's content to finish up in Detroit.

Messier's hardly breaking the bank at 3 million. Good contributor this year, and stayed healthy.
Malakhov might be a bit high at 3.5 mill, but I'd hardly call that scandalous. He's outta here any way.
Kaspar was signed as a free agent... but when he's on top of his game I'd say he's worth the 4 Million.

Let's face it: The brunt of this animosity toward the Rangers FA signings stems from Holik. There were other teams bidding on Holik - he was sought after his cup success with the Devs. The price was bid up. it's an auction to get a highly coveted guy... At that moment in history that's what his market value was! nobody seems to understand that - they just hear that number and Holik in the same sentence and make pissy comments about the Rangers because they won the auction.

I even heard one poster say that it came down to the Leafs and Rangers in the end and the Leafs dropped out before it even got to 7 million. But for some crazy reason the Rangers management tacked on an extra 2 million, just for kicks I guess.

Anyway: this is going nowhere, and on top of that - this is the last year we'll ever be discussing the present NHL - After this season it will be a whole new world. The problems won't be about who's spending the most on FA's but rather who is best at manipulating the cap ;)
 

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mentioned for spending money and picks to result in a "Win Now" mentality. Detroit is doing it. St. Louis is doing it"
Don't forget my Leafs :) I agree with you full heartedly, that the principle difference between DET/NYR/TOR/STL etc is that Detroit has made the better choices, and has the better coaching etc. At the same time, Detroit also has the better scouts, so despite those high picks they've tossed away, they seem to grab someone in the 10956073752th round and still pick a gem. I'm entirely jealous :(

Hats off to them though.

Plat
 

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Matt said:
I even heard one poster say that it came down to the Leafs and Rangers in the end and the Leafs dropped out before it even got to 7 million. But for some crazy reason the Rangers management tacked on an extra 2 million, just for kicks I guess.
Not true, the Leafs went to around 9 million as well, what it came down to in the end was that Holik did not want to leave the New York area.
 

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It is about time the Rangers began to actually think of what they were doing to their team. With the Rangers trading away these players it is good for their team and for the whole league
 

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Matt, I'll say one more thing and let it go. You are absolutely right about how the Rangers bear the brunt all the 'trying to buy a Cup' animosity, where teams like St. Louis, Washington and yes, Toronto should be equally culpable. But at least they are trying. I have more respect for the Rangers than I do for the Pens, Wild and Hawks. The Rangers are perfectly within the rules do spend money on whoever they want. I think the Yankees also deserve some blame for what the Rangers go through.
But, if you are a Ranger fan, hang in there. Maybe in 5 years we'll get a second crack at you guys in some June hockey. :)
 

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u have more respect for the blue shirts bc they try to buy the cup and teams like the pens and the wild cant?

Dont you think that if every team had 70 million to spend they would? Those teams simply dont have the money to buy the team. Money doesnt grow on trees. it isnt like Mario can go money picking in the orchard and buy Jagr back...The hawks do belong on that list but thats it lol
 

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I remember when Los Angeles wanted to BUY the cup by getting Wayne Greztky, but they were stopped by of course, Patrick Roy from the Montreal Canadiens, and the Canadiens won it :p

There's for your buying cups.
It wins sometimes, just a lil harder in the sport of hockey.
Don't forget, skill effort and playing as a TEAM wins cups.

If all those Stars would play as a team, they could certainly win the cup, like the Wings. But the Rangers was different, too many problems.
 

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gordfish said:
Matt, I'll say one more thing and let it go. You are absolutely right about how the Rangers bear the brunt all the 'trying to buy a Cup' animosity, where teams like St. Louis, Washington and yes, Toronto should be equally culpable. But at least they are trying. I have more respect for the Rangers than I do for the Pens, Wild and Hawks. The Rangers are perfectly within the rules do spend money on whoever they want. I think the Yankees also deserve some blame for what the Rangers go through.
But, if you are a Ranger fan, hang in there. Maybe in 5 years we'll get a second crack at you guys in some June hockey. :)
June??? Man I'd be thrilled to have some Ranger hockey in late April :mrgreen:

Any way as wordy as my points get... I'm just saying there's nothing wrong with spending big under the current rules. And NYR ain't the only ones doing it. Despite that my favorite team is the richest in the league (I think), I have been a strong proponent of a salary cap and a whole new NHL structure. Here's to the 'new' NHL we'll all be complaining about in a year or two :)
 
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