Hockey Fan Forums banner

1 - 20 of 37 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,140 Posts
I would have to say Mario.. outta the two hes the best.. The guy proved it night in and out and came back from some horrid things in his life.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
227 Posts
Considering that Gretzky literally rewrote the record book, it's really not open for debate.

Lemieux was a fantastic player, no question, but Gretzky was simply the best player that completely dominated the game throughout the 80's, and changed the game too! Look what Gretzky did in terms of goals scored, and total points for his entire career.

Gretzky in a landslide!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,140 Posts
you could really only say that with statistics. If we are talking over all leadership it would have to be Mario. Mario has done alot in his career as a player and Owner.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
227 Posts
Oh come on! Leadership?! Who led the Oilers during their heyday? Who led the Kings back to respectability? Who literally propped up the NHL and led to expansion in the sunbelt states? Who defined the game in the 1980's and early 90's? Gretzky, that's who!

The question posed was who was "better", and when comparing two offensive stars such as L & G, one must consider their offensive stats. Afterall, what else will you use as a basis for comparison? With this regard, Gretzky certainly dominated Lemieux. I'm not taking anything away from 66 as he was a superb player as well, but between the two, it's 99 al the way.

Lemieux only became an owner to recover his salary, which to a large degree was deferred. With the Pen's in bankruptcy court, it was all he could do to safeguard his lost wages, in the event of the Pen's going belly up and folding!

Actually, in a sense, Gretzky took the torch from Bobby Orr, who was also the most gifted player in his generation, and took the game to another level.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
I didn't do this myself.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok here would be the stats of both Lemieux and Gretzky if they had played every game in every season. Also I've taken out Gretzky's 11th, 14th, 15th and 16th seasons as Lemieux didnt play in those.

Mario Lemieux:

1st year: 47 goals, 62 assists, 109 points
2nd year: 48 goals, 94 assists, 142 points
3rd year: 68 goals, 67 assists, 135 points
4th year: 72 goals, 102 assists, 172 points
5th year: 89 goals, 120 assists, 209 points
6th year: 61 goals, 105 assists, 166 points
7th year: 58 goals, 80 assists, 138 points
8th year: 55 goals, 109 assists, 164 points
9th year: 97 goals, 127 assists, 224 points
10th year: 64 goals, 77 assists, 141 points
12th year: 80 goals, 109 assists, 189 points
13th year: 53 goals, 78 assists, 131 points
17th year, 67 goals, 77 assists, 144 points
18th year: 20 goals, 85 assists, 105 points
19th year: 34 goals, 77 assits, 111 points
20th year: 8 goals, 65 assists, 73 points

Career Totals: 921 goals, 1422 assists, 2353 points

50 or more goal seasons: 11
100 or more assists seasons: 5
100 or more point seasons: 15
200 or more point seasons: 2

Wayne Gretzky:
1st year: 51 goals, 87 assists, 138 points
2nd year: 55 goals, 109 asssists, 164 points
3rd year: 92 goals, 120 assists, 212 points
4th year: 71 goals, 125 assists, 196 points
5th year: 94 goals, 127 assists, 221 points
6th year: 73 goals, 135 assists, 208 points
7th year: 52 goals.163 assists, 215 points
8th year: 62 goals, 122 assists. 184 points
9th year: 50 goals, 136 assists, 186 points
10th year: 55 goals, 116 assists, 171 points
12th year: 42 goals, 124 asssists, 166 points
13th year: 33 goals . 97 assists. 130 points
17th year: 23 goals, 80 assists, 103 points
18th year: 25 goals. 72 assists, 97 points
19th year: 23 goals, 67 assists, 90 points
20th year: 10 goals, 62 assists, 72 points

Career Totals: 811 goals, 1742 assists, 2553 points

50 or more goals seasons: 10
100 or more assists seasons: 10
100 or more point seasons: 13
200 or more point seasons: 4

So if you look at it, Lemieux clearly owns Gretzky in number of career goals, would've had 1 more 50 or more goal season as well as 2 more 100 or more point seasons. Gretzky owns Lemieux in assists as he would've had 5 more 100 or more assists seasons. Lemieux and Gretzky would also have been tied in number of art ross trophies with 8 each. Gretzky would've been third in goal scoring while Lemieux would've been first. Gretzky would still been first in assists and points though. Oh and Lemieux would've had the record for most points and goals in a single season. Gretzky would still have had the record for most assists. Pretty interesting, thoughts?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
229 Posts
I'm going with Lemieux. Gretzky was great in Edmonton, BUT he had Messier. He's never won any cups without Messier to feed him, or take passes. Lemieux is a far better player, and it shows in his stats. If it hadn't been for his health issues, he'd be way ahead in the books.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
227 Posts
Wow, interesting how people will twist the numbers until they fit with their statements!

Senslife, your post really is irrelevant, as you can't doctor the numbers with prorated stats like "if they had played all games"! also, you dropped out 4 seasons Gretzky played because Lemieux didn't! Wow, talk about comparing apples to oranges!

The numbers (and I mean raw unaltered stats) speak volumes, and you can twist them how you want, but Gretzky set the bar that all others are compared to.

To say that Gretzky only won the cup in Edmonton because of Messier is so completely naive, it isn't worth commenting on. Last time I looked, it's a team game, and the entire team, Gretzky, Messier, Lowe, Fuhr etc all contributed, and contributed mightedly!

If Lemieux hadn't been injured, its a great "what if" question, but you can't change the past.

I'm not taking anything away from Lemieux, he was a fantastic player. however, Gretzky was in a league of his own, from day one, until he retired. Look at the plumbers he had has linemates his first 4-5 years in Edmonton. Look who he played with in LA, and the numbers they had! Yes, it was Gretzky who made these guys, and they would be the first to admit it, if asked.

Give Gretzky his fair share, the game has never seen a player like him before, and most likely will never see a player of his calibre again.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,140 Posts
I think they were showing what it would have been like if there were equal amounts of games played. I can see the relevance here!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
229 Posts
shanny14 said:
I think they were showing what it would have been like if there were equal amounts of games played. I can see the relevance here!
Bingo. No doubt Gretzky is a great player. No one can take that away from him, but if him and Lemieux had played the same amount of games, there would be no comparison.
As for me saying that Gretzky only one cups because of Messier, well, who of the two of them have led other teams to Cups? Personally, I think Messier is one of the best all round players we've ever seen, and we may never see another like him.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,140 Posts
HabsRule said:
Bingo. No doubt Gretzky is a great player. No one can take that away from him, but if him and Lemieux had played the same amount of games, there would be no comparison.
As for me saying that Gretzky only one cups because of Messier, well, who of the two of them have led other teams to Cups? Personally, I think Messier is one of the best all round players we've ever seen, and we may never see another like him.

Exactly.. Lemuix is amazing... I have always thought highly of him for his skill and dedication to the game... hes just a total asset... all stats aside.. hes the best:thumbsup:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
I didnt make those stats, I found them on a web site. It's an irrelevent comparison but a comparison at that.
It has been stated that Lemieux was known to smoke cigarettes and drink coffee while his teammates were hitting the bikes. Maybe if he put more effort in to staying in shape when he was young, he wouldn't have had back problems when he was older. Who knows.
Health is an aspect of the game which is why my vote goes to Gretzky.
And stating that Messier set him up is wrong. Messier and Gretzky didn't even play on the same line. And even if that was the case, you could say Lemieux had Jagr who was on average a 70 assists a year player.
When Lemieux was at his prime and Gretzky at his, I would have to say that they were even. But carreer wise I'd have to go with Gretz.
One more thing. My favorite Lemieux stat is that he scored in his first game, first shift, first shot. Thats pretty amazing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
227 Posts
So Gretzky needed protection to ring up is mind boggling scoring stats! Really, is that correct!!?? When you own 61 NHL scoring records, you just write it off as he did this because of protection? If things were that easy, then each team would have their one (or two) designated snipers, with "protectors" so they could score at will.

The fact to the matter is that Gretzky's numbers probably will never be equalled, when you think of his goal scoring, and assist totals, it is simply amazing how one player so completely dominated in what is a team game. To whit, he has more assists, than the number 2 scorer all time has total points!

Yes, but he only did this because he was protected! LOL!:laugh: :laugh:

What a stupid comment, Sherek X, go back and think of another excuse! :cheeky4:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,429 Posts
Well, stats are stats... you can twist them in your favor but the reality is Gretzky is the man.

Maybe Gretzky was more of a leader cause he was in the league longer, i mean, he was a true leader by playing longer. . . silly argument but I wanted to say it…..

In the end, all the matters is the stats. You can’t say stats don’t count because the game is built on numbers, goal vs goal, wins versus losses. At the end of the season they don’t decide who gets the cup based on which team had the best overall attitude, its which team in the end put up the stats (the wins) and does deserve it.

Mario was a good player, a great player even. But Gretzky will remain untouched, and as the rules of the game changes, Gretzky’s career records will remain for hockey of that era.


Sherek X said:
Lemieux just because he didn't need protection like Gretzky to score goals.
Maybe Lemiux wasn’t likable so all the more reason he doesn’t deserve to be the best
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7 Posts
Based on how their careers went, Gretzky was a better player. If Lemieux had been healthy throughout his career he probably would have challenged for most points but you never know. Gretzky was the best finesse player of all time. Mario never played a finesse game, he was more physical and easily one of the best when he was healthy.

Gretzky was the best player in the world in the 80's when he was in EDM, but he was never as elite once he was traded, don't get me wrong he was still an amazing player and leader, but he was never the same threat. Lemieux was the best player in the 90's as he was healthy. Records come and go, it may be 100 years until someone comes close to his stats, but one day they will fall. Gretzky was a true leader, that is why he will always been known as the best player off all time.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,429 Posts
mrccougar said:
Records come and go, it may be 100 years until someone comes close to his stats, but one day they will fall.
With the way the game and rules are changing in the league in this day and age, i could believe it. I mean, less clutching, more of a skaters game now, goalie pads have gotten smaller (maybe not 1980 size) but the game is somewhat going back to its roots.

It will be interesting to see and definitely a historic moment in hockey if someone does break the Gretzkys’ record.

I agree, Lemiux was a great player, but it doesn’t matter about the "what if", it never happened. One could say "what if" gretzky was bigger and more physical, maybe he would have had an extra 30 points a season... what if...

All i know is at the end of the day, stats are the facts, and Gretzky is the great one :D
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
32 Posts
This topic shouldnt even be debatable considering Gretzky holds pretty much every offensive record there is. Like many people have said "what ifs" dont count. You have to look at the stats and the stats say that Gretzky is better. Plus Gretzky made everyone on his team better. If it wasnt for Gretzky, Jari Kurri probably wouldnt be one of the highest scoring Europeans of all-time. Enough said Gretzky is the best
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,140 Posts
I yi, yi.. someone please close this out.. jeeze.. this discussion is forever old..

and no it would be lemuiex.. im sorry.. the guy was an amazing player.. so what if hockeys golden boy *gretz* has so many records.. it takes the fortitude.. someone thats not all about themselves.. you could tell by the way the dude played. gretzky was all about him...

at least lemuiex wanted things that were beneficial to the team.. let me tell you, i dont think lemuiex cared about point totals.. and if anyone cannot see past the point totals then they do not know the values of real leadership.. end of discussion!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,194 Posts
Oh jeeze, who could not go for Gretzky on this? Gretzky has rewritten the record books, shown great dedication for the game, just been great. I do not know why this is even a thread. Gretzky is the obvious choice. Maybe if Lemieux did not get injured so much, he might have had a chance, but no, he does not. He also should not have come out of retirement, that lowered respect for him.
 
1 - 20 of 37 Posts
Top