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Discussion Starter #1
Over at TSN, Mike Modano is running away as the readers' top pick as the best American-born player ever, and I'll be honest and say that I'm a bit mystified.

With no disrespect intended towards Modano, (because he was a hell of a player) he just simply wasn't as good of a player as was Chris Chelios.

Democratic as it may be, it's still wrong.

Daryl
 

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Over at TSN, Mike Modano is running away as the readers' top pick as the best American-born player ever, and I'll be honest and say that I'm a bit mystified.

With no disrespect intended towards Modano, (because he was a hell of a player) he just simply wasn't as good of a player as was Chris Chelios.

Democratic as it may be, it's still wrong.

Daryl
I have to agree, I respect Modano and what he did. Chris chelios did more though in his respective position.
 

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I think Modano is right up there if not the top in American players IMO He did alot for what he had playing with him in Minny and Dallas. He was a great leader too.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Chris Chelios' run through the Hall of Fame quiz:
http://www.hockeyforum.com/611706-post106.html

Comes out 11 to 7 in Chelios' favor.

Modano is absolutely one of the top US players, but... Chelios just won too many major awards, too many 1st All-Star selections, too many Stanley Cups, etc, for Modano to place above him.

Daryl
 

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I think it could be a case of stats/perception not reflecting reality. Sports fans in general seem to have become obsessed with stats. People look at Modano's 500+ goals and 1200+ points and think he's the best American born player. Chelios being around as long as he was might hurt him in the argument as well. The perception of old man Chelios who keeps sticking around might make some forget about what he did earlier in his career. A lot of the voters are probably in the "what have you done for me lately" crowd.
 

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I dont think in the "what have you done for me lately" at all. IMO Modano had alot less teammates to work with and stayed with the team pretty much his whole career barring last year. And he did very very well.
 

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I dont think in the "what have you done for me lately" at all. IMO Modano had alot less teammates to work with and stayed with the team pretty much his whole career barring last year. And he did very very well.
I don't see how him staying with the Stars for most of his career has any bearing on how good of a player he is.

Chelios: 3 Cups, 3 Norris Trophies, 11 All-Star appearances
Modano: 1 Cup, 8 All-Star appearances

I don't think Modano's better personal stats outweigh what Chelios accomplished in his career. But I put a lot more weight into winning than I do personal stats, so I might not be the most objective person.

Modano is one of my all-time favorite players, but I don't think he's better than Chelios.
 

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See we are also talking about too different player type and 2 different positions.Both good at what they did but my vote goes to Modano. That guy was all heart and it pissed me off the way Dallas let him go for one year last year. They should have retired him in dallas last year.
 

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See we are also talking about too different player type and 2 different positions.Both good at what they did but my vote goes to Modano. That guy was all heart and it pissed me off the way Dallas let him go for one year last year. They should have retired him in dallas last year.
They are two different players/positions, but I still think the accomplishments of Chelios outweigh those of Modano. I do agree on the last part though. I understand the Stars wanted to move on, but I think when you're talking about the face of your franchise, you make an exception.

Although Modano was the one who decided to sign with Detroit, so he's not entirely blameless either. As a fan, I'll try to forget his brief stint as a Red Wing.
 

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I'll take Roenick 8 days a week over Modano.

Chelios and Leetch are D-men I would put ahed of him "all-time".

I would actually put Lafontaine ahead of him too, if Modano's longevity didn't narrow the gap so much.

To call him the greatest American of all time is just being polite to the man as he walks away from the game.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I'll take Roenick 8 days a week over Modano.

Chelios and Leetch are D-men I would put ahed of him "all-time".

I would actually put Lafontaine ahead of him too, if Modano's longevity didn't narrow the gap so much.

To call him the greatest American of all time is just being polite to the man as he walks away from the game.
That's basically it.

Any number of the voters were either too young or not even born during the prime years of Chelios, Leetch and LaFontaine. I welcome Modano's name to the debate, but just don't see the argument in his favor.

Daryl
 

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I don't know how accurate these numbers are since they have Brett Hull at the top of their list and from what I understand he was born in Canada....:dunno:

http://statshockey.homestead.com/americanbornplayers.html

But according to this list he is the second highest scorer.

For whatever reason, Joe Mullen was the first name that popped into my mind when I read the thread title.

for what it's worth...

z
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I don't know how accurate these numbers are since they have Brett Hull at the top of their list and from what I understand he was born in Canada....:dunno:

http://statshockey.homestead.com/americanbornplayers.html

But according to this list he is the second highest scorer.

For whatever reason, Joe Mullen was the first name that popped into my mind when I read the thread title.

for what it's worth...

z
Yeah, Hull was born in Belleville, (I used to live there years back) so I'm not sure what they're talking about there.

Joey Mullen, huh? ...........

You've gotta do better than a point-per-game when your prime years were in the 1980s. No disrespect intended towards him, because he definitely was a producer.

Daryl
 

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Yeah, Hull was born in Belleville, (I used to live there years back) so I'm not sure what they're talking about there.

Joey Mullen, huh? ...........

You've gotta do better than a point-per-game when your prime years were in the 1980s. No disrespect intended towards him, because he definitely was a producer.

Daryl
Oh you're right, I am just sayin' is all. For some reason I thought of him. Can't explain why.

Back to the list I provided. If we both agree that Hull is just a "pissy Canadian" than Modano is the next, or the real first in all time scoring.

So, what makes someone the "best all time American?". Points has to be it no? I mean this can really be quite the debate. Wayne has the most point totals of all time, and leads the best all time Canadian listing on that same site. However, second all time is Messier. So, who would you rather on your team? I can't answer that right now. I mean as far as alpha males go, Mark wins all day. Great leader, tough, could play at all ends of the game. Wayne was a gift to this game. I dunno...

z
 

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Discussion Starter #16
So, what makes someone the "best all time American?". Points has to be it no? I mean this can really be quite the debate. Wayne has the most point totals of all time, and leads the best all time Canadian listing on that same site. However, second all time is Messier. So, who would you rather on your team? I can't answer that right now. I mean as far as alpha males go, Mark wins all day. Great leader, tough, could play at all ends of the game. Wayne was a gift to this game. I dunno...

z
To my mind, to answer any one big question like this with only one simple answer is a bit limited.

We could ask people which of two men is bigger. One person could say that man #1 is bigger because he's taller. Another person could say that #2 is bigger because he's heavier. Yet another person could point back at man #1 and say that he's biggest because he's wider around the middle (AKA fat). You could give any of those answers, and with respect to which aspect you're speaking of, you'd be correct. The problem, of course, is that you could be incorrect about the others.

You could answer this question based on points, but this carries with it more questions to ask: was offense high or low? He scored a lot of points, but was he a dominant player? The same goes for goals, assists, etc, etc, etc.

For my part, I've always favored an approach which attempts to answer big questions like "Who's the best ever?" by breaking it down into a number of smaller questions. For example, a project of mine from about 5 years ago:

http://web.archive.org/web/20051222110731/http://members.shaw.ca/hbtn/player_study/hpr.htm
(So old it's on a web archive. haha)

Or, you could attempt to answer it with a simpler format which everybody can take part in, like the Hall of Fame Quiz:
http://www.hockeyforum.com/nhl-forum/44690-hall-fame-debate-different-approach.html

Now, the HOF Quiz isn't really trying to answer the question of who the best player ever was, but you get the idea: you can ask different questions to find the answer. The cool thing about this approach is that you can use it answer damned-near any question you want to ask.

"Which is the greatest rock band ever?"
"Who is the most effective Prime Minister in Canadian history?"
"Who is the dirtiest player in hockey history?"

Etc, etc, etc.

Daryl
 

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That's basically it.

Any number of the voters were either too young or not even born during the prime years of Chelios, Leetch and LaFontaine. I welcome Modano's name to the debate, but just don't see the argument in his favor.

Daryl
To be fair, Roenick openly has called Modano the greatest American born player for years now, and he played with Chelios on the Hawks for years.
 

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