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Matt said:
People still mentioning Jagr, I just don't get it. I can understand if you don't like him, I don't particularly like him either. BUt there's no way you can tell me he's overrated when you look at what he's achieved.

I mentioned before that he is currently 26th in NHL all-time scoring (points). Out of those top 30 all-time scorers, here is the top ten in 'points-per-game'...

1.92 Wayne Gretzky
1.91 Mario Lemieux
1.31 Marcel Dionne
1.27 Jaromir Jagr
1.24 Phil Esposito
1.21 Joe Sakic
1.20 Guy Lafleur
1.19 Dale Hawerchuk
1.19 Denis Savard
1.18 Steve Yzerman

And he's over-rated ??? :shock:

This guy has both the potential and time left in his career to pass Messier for #2 all time scorer in NHL history. I'm not saying that's gonna happen... only that it's quite possible - Even if he never has another 1+ point-per-game season again, he could still do it just by staying in the league until he's 40.
Yeah, I don't get the Jagr claims either. I made a whole post about it....... I guess going to the Rangers was the final nail in the coffen from some peoples' point of view.
 

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Man.Utd (SENS#1) said:
Yeah, I don't get the Jagr claims either. I made a whole post about it....... I guess going to the Rangers was the final nail in the coffen from some peoples' point of view.
Yeha that could be it. And I really can't blame people for thinking that way... it's not uncommon for a 'star' player to come to the Rangers and then suddenly lose his game. But Jagr came in here and scored a point a game, both before and after the fire sale of the team. Time will tell, but my feeling is Jagr will continue to be productive in NY.
 

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Matt said:
People still mentioning Jagr, I just don't get it. I can understand if you don't like him, I don't particularly like him either. BUt there's no way you can tell me he's overrated when you look at what he's achieved.

I mentioned before that he is currently 26th in NHL all-time scoring (points). Out of those top 30 all-time scorers, here is the top ten in 'points-per-game'...

1.92 Wayne Gretzky
1.91 Mario Lemieux
1.31 Marcel Dionne
1.27 Jaromir Jagr
1.24 Phil Esposito
1.21 Joe Sakic
1.20 Guy Lafleur
1.19 Dale Hawerchuk
1.19 Denis Savard
1.18 Steve Yzerman

And he's over-rated ??? :shock:

This guy has both the potential and time left in his career to pass Messier for #2 all time scorer in NHL history. I'm not saying that's gonna happen... only that it's quite possible - Even if he never has another 1+ point-per-game season again, he could still do it just by staying in the league until he's 40.
I don't think anyone is saying he doesn't have talent, but people still see him as one of the best forwards in the league today. It's true he still gets a point a game, but that's all he does, he doesn't hit, doesn't play defense, doesn't have any heart whatsoever. He used to put up enough points to make you forget about the rest of his game but since he left Pittsburgh he doesn't. He still has talent, but he can no longer be seen as a top 10 forward and a lot of people still see him as one. That's why I think he's overrated.
 

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Bondra being labelled as inconsistent with his goalscoring is probably one of the most ridiculous things ive ever heard.

13 straight years in the NHL with at least 20 goals sounds pretty consistent to me, not to mention the fact that the guy has gone through stretches of 3 and 5 years scoring at least 30 goals, and in those years hes scored over 50 twice and over 40 twice.

If you want to get into rediciulous number arguments about drops in percentages, try this one on: 984 games, 477 goals.
Thats roughly 2 games per goal over a 14 year career. SOunds pretty consistent to me.

Add to this fact that he is no spring chicken, and had a recognized slump in ottawa this year, still getting 26 goals at 36 years of age.

Even if you think he is overrated as a goal scorer, you should take into account the fact that he is defensively underrated, since he is in my opinion one of the better backchecking forwards ive ever seen, effectively cancelling out the preposterous claim that he is offensively overrated.

sorry to ramble on, but i REALLY like Peter Bondra and really hate idiots.
 

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proudtobecanadian said:
1.) Jagr - Most experts say he is one of the best players in the game. Well since he left Pittsburgh he's been a point a game player, which is good, but he does nothing else. He doesn't play physical, doesn't play well defensively. In my opinion he is not one of the best players in the league and if I had to make a list of the top 50 forwards I'd want on my team, he might not make it.
Then I challenge you to make a list of 50 forwards you would want on your team instead of Jagr ;)- And explain why too. Simply because there arent 50 forwards in the league better than him. There isnt even 50 forwards all time better than him

2.) Brodeur - First I'm not saying he isn't a great goalie, but people say he is the best goalie in the game today and maybe the best ever. Well like PDO said, put him with another team and his stats would look a lot different. He wouldn't have the same number of wins, or shutouts and his GAA would be a lot higher. He is a great goalie, but is still very overrated.
Hes had an almost different team every year since he came into the league. The fact is the reason the devils won cups was because of his goaltending. Yeh put any goalie on the worst teams in the league and yeh none of them would be very good, but put any other goalie in Jersey and tell me theyd flourish like him? Yes they limit his shots...but how many 1 goal games have the devils this year? or the year before that? Year in and Year out they let in the least gaa in the league, that cant be just the defense...

3) Bure - He's a talented player, but a lot of his points have to do with the fact that he just sits along the blue line waiting for that break away pass. He plays like crap defensively and physically. He does score, but that's all he does.
Bure is one of the most explosive players in the game. Hes talented, and yeh alot of his points are from that break away pass...but the fact that he can dominate any goaltender. Hes not overrated..every GM in the league knows what he brings and what he doesnt. there arent too many players with his talent in the league

) Primeau - Some people say he is a great power forward, I disagree. He used to be a great power forward but over the past 3 years he has averaged 39 points and in the playoffs he has only got 8 points in 28 playoff games over the last 4 years. Hardly awe-inspiring. He lays some hits and is good at shutting down the opposition, but can't really be considered a great power forward any longer. In my opinion he's now a less offensive version of Holik.
Hes one of the best defensive players in the league. Sure he isnt as offensive anymore but incase you havent noticed Hitch reversed his role. He scored 30 some goals before hitch came in...now hes a third line defensive checker...and he successfully shuts down every offensive line in the NHL. Not to mention hes one of the best captains in the league. Watch the flyers play with him...and watch them play without him...almost 2 different teams....that few weeks when he was gone through january and december we didnt wina single game
 

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Gurien,Weight, Smyth,Comrie, Salo,Brewer, Sundin,mogilny,Nolan, Roberts, Modano, Palffey, Stevens, Morrison, Federov, Mccabe, the list goes on.
 

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gojetsgo said:
Gurien,Weight, Smyth,Comrie, Salo,Brewer, Sundin,mogilny,Nolan, Roberts, Modano, Palffey, Stevens, Morrison, Federov, Mccabe, the list goes on.
You have a few weird name's in there; Smyth is pure grit and averaged a PPG once he was moved back to the wing. Brewer was one of the best dmen (if not the best) in the league under 25 in the second half of the year. Palfffey was in the top 5 leading scorers before he got hurt. Stevens; well look at what happened to NJ the second he wasn't there for a playoff run.

Also, if Dough Weightm was given what he had in Edmonton, I believe the Blue's could still be in the playoffs, he's completly misused in St. Louis.
 
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Discussion Starter #48
once again Morrison is underrater rated, not overrated..but they're your opinions
 

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Then I challenge you to make a list of 50 forwards you would want on your team instead of Jagr
Ok, maybe 50 was an exaggeration, but there are 43 other forwards I'd rather have. I'm not going to explain why for each, that would take to long. Some are because of an all around game, some because of potential and some just because they're better offensively or have more heart.

Here they are in no particular order.

1 - Heatly
2 - Mogilny
3 - Stajan
4 - St. Louis
5 - Kovalchuk
6 - Sakic
7 - Naslund
8 - Hossa
9 - Elias
10 - Alfredsson (god it hurts to say that)
11 - Stillman
12 - Lang
13 - Richards
14 - Tanguay
15 - Sundin
16 - Recchi
17 - Hejduk
18 - Doan
19 - Iginla
20 - Thorton
21 - Tkachuk
22 - Guerin
23 - Datsyuk
24 - Fedorov
25 - Weight
26 - Ryder
27 - Bertuzzi
28 - Murray
29 - Smyth
30 - Nash
31 - Holik
32 - Spezza
33 - Forsberg
34 - Shanahan
35 - Savard
36 - Nagy
37 - Hunter
38 - Nieuwendyk
39 - Nolan
40 - Roberts
41 - Roenick
42 - Modano
43 - Peca

There may be more, I only went over it quickly.


Yeh put any goalie on the worst teams in the league and yeh none of them would be very good, but put any other goalie in Jersey and tell me theyd flourish like him?
Any other good goalie would do as well as Brodeur if they played in NJ in my opinion. Hell, look at the numbers NJ's backups put up.

Clemmensen - 4 GP - 3W - 1L - 1.01 GAA - .952 Save%
Schwab - 3 GP - 2W - 1T - 0.64 GAA - .971 Save%

If you want to see how much being in NJ makes a goalie look better, take a look at Schwabs stats before he came to NJ and after. Quite a difference.

Bure is one of the most explosive players in the game. Hes talented, and yeh alot of his points are from that break away pass...but the fact that he can dominate any goaltender. Hes not overrated..every GM in the league knows what he brings and what he doesnt. there arent too many players with his talent in the league
True he is one of the most talented players in the league, but he does nothing else. He's another player like Jagr, his talent doesn't make up for the rest of his game.

Hes one of the best defensive players in the league. Sure he isnt as offensive anymore but incase you havent noticed Hitch reversed his role. He scored 30 some goals before hitch came in...now hes a third line defensive checker...and he successfully shuts down every offensive line in the NHL. Not to mention hes one of the best captains in the league. Watch the flyers play with him...and watch them play without him...almost 2 different teams....that few weeks when he was gone through january and december we didnt wina single game
Yes he is a great defensive player, and I said he's good at shutting down the opposition, but people still see him as a great power forward, which he no longer is and that in my opinion makes him overrated.
 

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If I had to choose, I would take Jagr on my team over any of these guys

Elias
Stillman
Richards
Recchi
Guerin
Weight
Ryder
Murray
Smyth
Spezza
Savard
Hunter
Nolan
Modano
Peca < I'd rather have Herman Munster on my team than Peca

But of course we're all entitled to our own opinions. :)
 

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You forgot Yashin. Alfredsson lol [email protected]#

proudtobecanadian said:
Here they are in no particular order.

1 - Heatly
2 - Mogilny
3 - Stajan
4 - St. Louis
5 - Kovalchuk
6 - Sakic
7 - Naslund
8 - Hossa
9 - Elias
10 - Alfredsson (god it hurts to say that)
11 - Stillman
12 - Lang
13 - Richards
14 - Tanguay
15 - Sundin
16 - Recchi
17 - Hejduk
18 - Doan
19 - Iginla
20 - Thorton
21 - Tkachuk
22 - Guerin
23 - Datsyuk
24 - Fedorov
25 - Weight
26 - Ryder
27 - Bertuzzi
28 - Murray
29 - Smyth
30 - Nash
31 - Holik
32 - Spezza
33 - Forsberg
34 - Shanahan
35 - Savard
36 - Nagy
37 - Hunter
38 - Nieuwendyk
39 - Nolan
40 - Roberts
41 - Roenick
42 - Modano
43 - Peca

There may be more, I only went over it quickly.
 

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Rune26 said:
3 - Stajan
Do you'd rather have him than Jagr?? Maybe I'm not reading back in the thread enough, but I'm assuming this is for salary reasons.
No, as I stated some of those players I'd rather have because of their potential. I think Stajan has the potential to be a point a game player and is very good defensively as well. If he had gotten more ice time and played with better players he could have gotten 50 points this year. Give Stajan 2-4 years and I think he'll be seen as on of the better players in this league.
 

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Rune26 said:
True, but you shouldn't pick him over Jagr becuase of something he hasn't even done yet.
Well when Iginla came into the league you could tell he was going to be a good player. He wasn't the star at that time but if you had a choice to take a chance on him when he first came into the league when you didn't know he was going to be a star, or take Jagr the way he's playing now, who would you choose? I would have taken Iginla.
 

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Matt said:
People still mentioning Jagr, I just don't get it. I can understand if you don't like him, I don't particularly like him either. BUt there's no way you can tell me he's overrated when you look at what he's achieved.

I mentioned before that he is currently 26th in NHL all-time scoring (points). Out of those top 30 all-time scorers, here is the top ten in 'points-per-game'...

1.92 Wayne Gretzky
1.91 Mario Lemieux
1.31 Marcel Dionne
1.27 Jaromir Jagr
1.24 Phil Esposito
1.21 Joe Sakic
1.20 Guy Lafleur
1.19 Dale Hawerchuk
1.19 Denis Savard
1.18 Steve Yzerman

And he's over-rated ??? :shock:
Unlike the other players on this list, Jagr isn't a team player. He was a cancer in Pittsburgh, again in Washington and will be in NY! Just like Lindros. Too much "what about me" and not enough about the team!

I'll never forget the time when the Pens were in the playoffs and Jagr broken his stick... They were going on the PP. Not only didn't he have a spare stick on the bench but, instead of sending the trainer to get him a new one in the dressing room, he skated off the ice to get his own stick! I remember the announcers wondering if he got hurt, but couldn't find where or when it would have happened. They later found out! Kevin Stevens was playing with him then. Maybe, just maybe, in the worst case scenario, he could have borrowed one of Stevens' sticks in the mean time???

I wouldn't want that guy on my team if he played for free! :evil:
 

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JL said:
Matt said:
People still mentioning Jagr, I just don't get it. I can understand if you don't like him, I don't particularly like him either. BUt there's no way you can tell me he's overrated when you look at what he's achieved.

I mentioned before that he is currently 26th in NHL all-time scoring (points). Out of those top 30 all-time scorers, here is the top ten in 'points-per-game'...

1.92 Wayne Gretzky
1.91 Mario Lemieux
1.31 Marcel Dionne
1.27 Jaromir Jagr
1.24 Phil Esposito
1.21 Joe Sakic
1.20 Guy Lafleur
1.19 Dale Hawerchuk
1.19 Denis Savard
1.18 Steve Yzerman

And he's over-rated ??? :shock:
Unlike the other players on this list, Jagr isn't a team player. He was a cancer in Pittsburgh, again in Washington and will be in NY! Just like Lindros. Too much "what about me" and not enough about the team!

I'll never forget the time when the Pens were in the playoffs and Jagr broken his stick... They were going on the PP. Not only didn't he have a spare stick on the bench but, instead of sending the trainer to get him a new one in the dressing room, he skated off the ice to get his own stick! I remember the announcers wondering if he got hurt, but couldn't find where or when it would have happened. They later found out! Kevin Stevens was playing with him then. Maybe, just maybe, in the worst case scenario, he could have borrowed one of Stevens' sticks in the mean time???

I wouldn't want that guy on my team if he played for free! :evil:
and plus any player that makes 11 million is overrated.
 

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proudtobecanadian said:
Then I challenge you to make a list of 50 forwards you would want on your team instead of Jagr
Ok, maybe 50 was an exaggeration, but there are 43 other forwards I'd rather have. I'm not going to explain why for each, that would take to long. Some are because of an all around game, some because of potential and some just because they're better offensively or have more heart.

Here they are in no particular order.

1 - Heatly
2 - Mogilny
3 - Stajan
4 - St. Louis
5 - Kovalchuk
6 - Sakic
7 - Naslund
8 - Hossa
9 - Elias
10 - Alfredsson (god it hurts to say that)
11 - Stillman
12 - Lang
13 - Richards
14 - Tanguay
15 - Sundin
16 - Recchi
17 - Hejduk
18 - Doan
19 - Iginla
20 - Thorton
21 - Tkachuk
22 - Guerin
23 - Datsyuk
24 - Fedorov
25 - Weight
26 - Ryder
27 - Bertuzzi
28 - Murray
29 - Smyth
30 - Nash
31 - Holik
32 - Spezza
33 - Forsberg
34 - Shanahan
35 - Savard
36 - Nagy
37 - Hunter
38 - Nieuwendyk
39 - Nolan
40 - Roberts
41 - Roenick
42 - Modano
43 - Peca
Jagrs stats this year- 31-44-75 -5 in 77 Games-with New York and Washington, 2 of the worst teams this year
Career- 1027 games- 537-772-1309 +207

Of all the players on that list only Sundin, Roenick, Modano, Niewndyk, Shanahan, Forsberg, Federov, Tkachuk and Recchi have careers like his..and often worse than his- but I would take them over him as well.

Many of the players on that list: Hunter, Nagy, Savard, Spezza, Ryder, Guerin, Smyth, Richards, Roberts, Murray, Datsyuk, Doan, Tanguay, Lang, Stillman. Kovulchuk Heatley have only had one, two or three good seasons and will probably never touch him on the scoring sheets (although some of them have only had only about 1-3 seasons to prove themselves we play in a different time), Jagr has been excellent for 13 of his 14 seasons, his other year...his rookie year he had 27 goals

Mogilny, Weight, Nolan, Holik, Peca and even roberts and niewy are shadows of thier former selves, not to mention ancient...

The other players: Naslund, Bertuzzi, Hejduk, St Louis, Hossa, Alfreddson, Elias, Modano, Thornton- yeh id take them over Jagr- although Hejduk im not so sure, and im discounting modanos terrible season.

The players from that list of people who arent going to match his numbers-
Kovy, Heater, Smyth, Murray, Datsyuk, Tanguay

So - 24 people I can understand..the others well youd have to explain to me because I dont see how they are better than jagr
 
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