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Mark Messier or Scott Stevens


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Since its induction night at the HHOF I'd thought I'd start a poll and see how everyone feels where these two great players fit in NHL history.

Scott Stevens and Mark Messier are probably 1a and 1b when it comes to leadership. Leadership for these two is almost equal, but what I want to know is this. Knowing what we now know about these guys, which one would you take at age 18 to build a team around?
 

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Sigh. Messier. For the sharks, I would take Stevens because a Defenseman/leader of his type is EXACTLY what we need.

But well, Messier. This one if close as heck.
 

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For the first time ever, I'm stumped on a POLL question. You got me!! Wow, I honestly can't decide so I'm not going to choose.

My first instinct was Messier, BUT when I think about those 3 hits Stevens delivered (all of which made a difference in the Devils winning the Cup) on Kozlov
(1995) , Lindros (2000), and Kariya (2003), I'm left undecided. :dunno:
 

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IslesFan9 said:
For the first time ever, I'm stumped on a POLL question. You got me!! Wow, I honestly can't decide so I'm not going to choose.

My first instinct was Messier, BUT when I think about those 3 hits Stevens delivered (all of which made a difference in the Devils winning the Cup) on Kozlov
(1995) , Lindros (2000), and Kariya (2003), I'm left undecided. :dunno:
I don't think the third hit(Kariya) had a big impact on winning the cup. Kariya flew out the gates in the third that game and lazered one past Brodeur. He was a monster after the hit in the third.
 

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You're right Joe. Good point on the Kariya hit. I'm still at a neutral stand though :cheeky4: lol *joke*
 

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Not to take anything away from stevens but once placed into a tight defensive system as the devils became his game really shined and a legend he became. I still believe if you put a number of any great Hitters/Defensive players on those devils teams the value of there leaderships would rise. As in messier he still was the leader without the great one, still won in edmonton and broke a 54 year curse in N.Y when the players had issues with Mike Keenan and took on the roll like a 2nd coach in the locker room more then a leader/captain would.

My choice I would have to go with messier even if i wasn't a rangers fan. Messier is one of the top 10 players ever and Stevens im not sure would crack a top 10 defensmen picking let alone top 10 all-time players. But in his time Stevens was a top 10.

i could also add i see a better future for Messier in a coach/gm role then i think Stevens could.
 

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Chris_1968 said:
Not to take anything away from stevens but once placed into a tight defensive system as the devils became his game really shined and a legend he became. I still believe if you put a number of any great Hitters/Defensive players on those devils teams the value of there leaderships would rise. As in messier he still was the leader without the great one, still won in edmonton and broke a 54 year curse in N.Y when the players had issues with Mike Keenan and took on the roll like a 2nd coach in the locker room more then a leader/captain would.

My choice I would have to go with messier even if i wasn't a rangers fan. Messier is one of the top 10 players ever and Stevens im not sure would crack a top 10 defensmen picking let alone top 10 all-time players. But in his time Stevens was a top 10.

i could also add i see a better future for Messier in a coach/gm role then i think Stevens could.
Meh. Stevens was also a high profile norris caliber scorer until he followed coaching instructions and went defense only.
And no, Stevens would not crack a top 10 all time Defensemen list(He is top 20), but neither is Messier a top 10 all time player IMO(he is top 20) Maybe MAYBE top 10 all time forwards, but not guaranteed.

For Defensemen:
Orr
Shore
Harvey
Bourque
Potvin
Lidstrom
Robinson
Fetisov
Park
Kelly
Chelios
 

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If Stevens were to play today, he wouldnt be the dominant player that he was. He wouldn't be able to latch onto players and his open ice hits would be frowned upon. Dont get me wrong, he's a great player and a top 15 defensemen all time, however I dont think he was as good as lets say a Robinson.

As for Mark. I think playoff preformer! The guy could change the game in one shift. Be it, scoring a goal, a hard hit, or just simply leading by example. My only knock against Messier is that he should have retired on more of a high note, instead of trying to prolong his career ( IMO to break Howe's record) because we ( as in younger people) do not tend to remember Mark as a dominate player, but an old guy who just wouldn't stop lacing up the skates.


J0e Th0rnton... No Hortan?
 

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scott stevens never needed to have a room full of cronies for people to respect him. on the other hand, messier minus his cronies = the vancouver canucks' lost years in the late '90s.
 

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hockeyboy14 said:
If Stevens were to play today, he wouldnt be the dominant player that he was. He wouldn't be able to latch onto players and his open ice hits would be frowned upon. Dont get me wrong, he's a great player and a top 15 defensemen all time, however I dont think he was as good as lets say a Robinson.

As for Mark. I think playoff preformer! The guy could change the game in one shift. Be it, scoring a goal, a hard hit, or just simply leading by example. My only knock against Messier is that he should have retired on more of a high note, instead of trying to prolong his career ( IMO to break Howe's record) because we ( as in younger people) do not tend to remember Mark as a dominate player, but an old guy who just wouldn't stop lacing up the skates.


J0e Th0rnton... No Hortan?
Horton is not on my top 10 list no. top 20 yes
 

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I've got a very scary rhough.... stevens and messier on the same team.... ooouuuuuuuu *shivers*
 

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How can you consider someone one of the great players of all time when his most notable accomplishment was elbowing guys in the head?

I can't recall one big goal that Scott Stevens ever scored in his career.

He was a defensive player on a defensive team that was given credit by default.
 

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Bless_D_Mess said:
How can you consider someone one of the great players of all time when his most notable accomplishment was elbowing guys in the head?

I can't recall one big goal that Scott Stevens ever scored in his career.

He was a defensive player on a defensive team that was given credit by default.

This is hockey, not figure skating ;)

Let's dissect this, hockey hall of FAME. Meaning? it's not really for the greatest players. It's for the players who put a face to hockey, people that help build the game or showed great skill, hard work or out right entertainment. They're fan favorites not stats.

Also, those "elbows" are often arguable, they're not outright raised elbows at someone's face in an attempt to injure them.
 

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Æn7ropy said:
Also, those "elbows" are often arguable, they're not outright raised elbows at someone's face in an attempt to injure them.

No? How many times does it take for Stevens to elbow a player in the head knocking him out for him to figure out that A causes B?

I would watch Stevens feign shock when being interviewed after one of his cheap shots to the head as if seriously hurting someone was the furthest thing from his mind - and then see him do it again in the next game.
 

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Bless_D_Mess said:

No? How many times does it take for Stevens to elbow a player in the head knocking him out for him to figure out that A causes B?

I would watch Stevens feign shock when being interviewed after one of his cheap shots to the head as if seriously hurting someone was the furthest thing from his mind - and then see him do it again in the next game.
I'm talking raised for-elbow to the face, steven's elbows were often to the head but also to his side. He was running at the to hit them hard, hurt them sure but it's hockey, injuries are bound to happen, besides if I was on ice and knew Stevens was on I'd keep my head up
 

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Bless_D_Mess said:

No? How many times does it take for Stevens to elbow a player in the head knocking him out for him to figure out that A causes B?

I would watch Stevens feign shock when being interviewed after one of his cheap shots to the head as if seriously hurting someone was the furthest thing from his mind - and then see him do it again in the next game.
Stevens hits were always primarily shoulder. The raising of the elbows after contact was customary of any hockey hit because you raise your arm to push off the hit.

He was not "Elbowing them" in the head, as you try to imply, and anyone who knows hockey knows it.

Stevens made any great forward think twice or hesitate before crossing the devils blueline. It was money in the bank to have a guy who could put the fear of god into forwards like that.

The league deemed his hits shoulder, and never penalized him. Therefore, they were clean shoulder hits.

Also, im quite sure there is a rule against posting in different colors than normal on the boards. I once got told to stop for posting in all teal because it was against the rules.
 

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I've watched those hits countless times. While he followed through at times with an elbow, it was the shoulder connecting with a lowered head for the most part. Remember, he was more upright when throwing a hit....into someone who was skating more knees-bent and with their head down.
 
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