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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
assume your life is bad and you must be very insecure person if your not religious like them.

never ceases to amaze me.

Today I was heading to library at university and got stopped by some people who came here to Newfoundland from Alberta, to, they said, walk around and pray for our university and talk to people about God.

I asked them what type of christians they were and they said Evangelics (i have never heard of that denomination before) and they asked me what I believe and I told them I am an agnostic which basically means, I told them, that I believe in the possibility of a god and a non physical beings souls, sprits, angels and so on existing, but that I am not certain if they do exist.

Then they had the gall to say to me Oh we will be praying hard for you, as for the other university students, but harder for you, the lost soul, you must be feeling so insecure and lost in your life . When you find God, they said, then your life will be better. All you need, they said, is faith.

I couldnt believe it. What a patronizing arrogant thing to say. To assume my life is bad and im insecure because Im agnostic? It also , read between the lines, makes them sound like their life is good and they're somehow better than mine and me because they believe.

I have a great life. I have a great boyfriend, I will be graduating in May 2009 with my Bachelor of Arts degree, I have great friends, I have good marks in school.

Any ideas on some comebacks to say to these people who look down on others and think, and actually say it, your life is bad because you are a freethinker?

What can I say the next time that happens?
 

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being an agnostic darwinist, i farking love it when god-botherers try to introduce me to the idea of conversion to the sandle wearing way of life.

i am not so arrogant to presume that i know the big answers, anymore than i am convinced that my existence is so worthy of something, that there has to be an underlying reason or consciousness for it. shame they don't feel the same way!

but to some people, their lives are so fraught with fear and devoid of genuine worth and interest, that they have to indulge in the fantasy of theology.

i sympathise with them, but thus far, no cogent arguement has been presented to affect a change in my mental that we are here by pure fluke of happenstance.

bizarrely, this fills me with great comfort.
 

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What can I say the next time that happens?
oops, to ansa.... usually i discuss their faith with them, until they find an excuse to say 'goodbye' to me.

if you are opposed to simply saying "***** off phreak", i would simply tell them that you had already met god and she told you to live life true to yourself and to accept all others, believers and non-believers alike as being equal, as all originated from and are destined for the exact same thing. (whatever that is)

if they should dare respond to such simple logic with 'yes but.....' tell them to have faith and that you will not be preying for them. being equal there is no such need to.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
oops, to ansa.... usually i discuss their faith with them, until they find an excuse to say 'goodbye' to me.

QUOTE]

actually i had the best excuse in the world when i left them

I was in the univ library at the time and I said I had a test tomorrow I really had to study for (lol I had it on wednesday but they didnt need to know that lmao)

There was no way they could have said no to that unless they were totally heartless.
:thumbsup:
 

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I'm not sure why people take such offense to people trying to introduce them to something that they think is the way to eternal salvation. These people care about you, and are trying to help you along the way. Giving them a polite, "I'm sorry, I'm not interested" is really all that is necessary, and generally they move on. Coming on to a forum, and generalizing about how religious people act, is definitely not necessary.
 

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HF-MOTM Winner - Dec 07
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I'm not sure why people take such offense to people trying to introduce them to something that they think is the way to eternal salvation. These people care about you, and are trying to help you along the way. Giving them a polite, "I'm sorry, I'm not interested" is really all that is necessary, and generally they move on. Coming on to a forum, and generalizing about how religious people act, is definitely not necessary.
I dont' think the message is the issue, but the delievery method of said message. That's the impression I'm getting anyways.

And why is every religious thing in Canada coming from Alberta, or at least feels like it?
 

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I dont' think the message is the issue, but the delievery method of said message. That's the impression I'm getting anyways.

And why is every religious thing in Canada coming from Alberta, or at least feels like it?
Its still a generalization. I've had great conversations with jehovah's witnesses and Muslims about their faith without resorting to being rude,explaining to them what I thought were flaws in their philosophy. Yet, the moment people find out I'm a Christian, they jump on me and try to pound into my head why I'm an idiot. Politely stating that you disagree with me would make a much better impression on me.

My point? People bash religious people for their preaching,yet there are some atheists that are just as prone to doing it themselves.
 

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HF-MOTM Winner - Apr 08
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I'm not sure why people take such offense to people trying to introduce them to something that they think is the way to eternal salvation. These people care about you, and are trying to help you along the way. Giving them a polite, "I'm sorry, I'm not interested" is really all that is necessary, and generally they move on. Coming on to a forum, and generalizing about how religious people act, is definitely not necessary.
I love when people paint with a broad brush about anything...it humors me.

How dare we suggest that there is a potential heaven and hell and present the way to get to one and avoid the other. It's called faith. No one can prove with science. I look at it this way...if I'm right, great, I don't go to hell. If I decide to be an atheist and I'm wrong, well, that would suck. If I live my life as a Christian and follow the values therein, and I'm wrong about heaven and hell, so what...I've live a moral life and that's that. There is much more at risk in deciding to say "piss off" to all religion than there is to following one.

Talking in this manor about all religious people is comparable to me saying all Habs fans are like Crack N Coke.


Its still a generalization. I've had great conversations with jehovah's witnesses and Muslims about their faith without resorting to being rude,explaining to them what I thought were flaws in their philosophy. Yet, the moment people find out I'm a Christian, they jump on me and try to pound into my head why I'm an idiot. Politely stating that you disagree with me would make a much better impression on me.

My point? People bash religious people for their preaching,yet there are some atheists that are just as prone to doing it themselves.
Agreed...
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
I dont' think the message is the issue, but the delievery method of said message. That's the impression I'm getting anyways.

And why is every religious thing in Canada coming from Alberta, or at least feels like it?
Obviously, I forget to say that not all religious people are patronizing and think they are superior. Wingnut was right to question this. He was right and I was wrong for not remembering to say it. I guess I was just upset about what they said to me. I should write more carefully next time.

Note to self : Don't post while angry. Wait til you have calmed down a little first. :biggrin:

Exactly. Thank you, CanadianCreed. Assuming and even more so saying it to me, that I must be insecure and an lost soul and have a bad life because Im agnostic is just patronizing and is an air of superiority to it. I was nice to them tbh. I have no problem discussing faiths with people, and im very accepting of difference. In fact my boyfriend is a Christian. So Wingnut, you need have no fear of me. I wont hurt you because you are a Christian.

Maybe they seem to come from Alberta because tradition Alberta is a very right wing part of the country. Dont forget the West is where the Reform/Alliance and later the Conservative Party of Canada originated. It is also well documented that said ex - reform , later Alliance Party had ties to the Heritage Front, a Canadian Neo Nazi group.
 

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When you find God, they said, then your life will be better. All you need, they said, is faith.
I have a lot of problems with people who CLAIM to be Christians.I'm not interested in streets paved with gold,or a mansion in heaven.I hear 'the Bible is the LITERAL word of God, but I INTERPRET this verse this way or that way'There is NO room for interpretation,if it says,for example it is a sin to kill,it's ALWAYS a sin.Not in war,self-defence,acidently. EVER.

What I AM interested in is NOT spending an eternity in Hell,I never asked for a life and although I AM seeking God,I resent in some ways being given a gift [life they tell me is a gift]and being told I will be punished forever for not using the gift the way the giver [God] wants it to be used.

These people who tell you your life will be better by accepting Jesus are deluding themselves,it's your AFTERLIFE that will be better. Hell has got to suck,3 days in jail sucks.The boredom,the NOTHING but sitting and waiting for time to pass is unbearble.Hell has GOT to be worse.

People who don't believe in that Hell exists can take their chances,I'm not gonna.No one can bail you out of Hell. It's forever. We ALL have sinned but Jesus,I truly believe that we can be redeemed by true acceptence of Jesus.Even those who have found God are yet sinners. ALL are sinners,if you truly make an effort to avoid sinning and accept Jesus,you can some day find God.

YOU make mistakes and I make mistakes.If you truly try to avoid sinning,truly,in your heart and ask to be forgiven for when you do,you WILL be forgiven.'ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God'

And I'm not a hallalujah boy,I was actively on the 'other guys' side for awhile.I KNOW he's a liar. God CANNOT lie. I NEVER preach to others,just offering my point of view. You make your own decisions in life.
 

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I've always been told, if you ever want to start a fight with family or friends, just start a conversation of politics or religion.

I find the debate of religion redundant, because its a choice of belief. I don't have the mindset of a religion being better than another. As long as they preach positive things , I have no problem.

thats just my two cents.
 

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I find the debate of religion redundant, because its a choice of belief. I don't have the mindset of a religion being better than another. As long as they preach positive things , I have no problem.
That's an excellent way of posting it.

I myself am a Roman Catholic (not the best one) but I have also generally accepted other peoples religions and beliefs into my own when it comes to thinking theoretically. Examples are the Big Bang Theory or the possibility of reincarnation.

I also believe religion is more then a faith, but it can be anything that you believe in.

It is always interesting to look back in history and see how different cultures developed from their own beliefs and where they stand in our society today.

Also, because I believe that religion is more then faith but a belief of anything, I also believe that religion although gives great hope and reason to society is also the main root cause of war.

There is my two cents.
 

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I have a lot of problems with people who CLAIM to be Christians.I'm not interested in streets paved with gold,or a mansion in heaven.I hear 'the Bible is the LITERAL word of God, but I INTERPRET this verse this way or that way'There is NO room for interpretation,if it says,for example it is a sin to kill,it's ALWAYS a sin.Not in war,self-defence,acidently. EVER.
That's incorrect. Killing is not always a sin. The bible doesn't say that. Husbands and fathers are called to be the protectors of their families. God led people into war and battles. Moses killed an Egyptian who was beating a slave. David killed Goliath. I can go on and on.

These people who tell you your life will be better by accepting Jesus are deluding themselves,it's your AFTERLIFE that will be better. Hell has got to suck,3 days in jail sucks.The boredom,the NOTHING but sitting and waiting for time to pass is unbearble.Hell has GOT to be worse.
This is a matter of opinion. Having something you have faith in, something you believe in is comforting to some people to know that there is something guiding and in control. I would think it's depressing to think that everything going on in the world is completely random and out of control, complete chaos...

People who don't believe in that Hell exists can take their chances,I'm not gonna.No one can bail you out of Hell. It's forever. We ALL have sinned but Jesus,I truly believe that we can be redeemed by true acceptence of Jesus.Even those who have found God are yet sinners. ALL are sinners,if you truly make an effort to avoid sinning and accept Jesus,you can some day find God.
We all sin, we all make mistakes. It happens. It's because we have salvation that are not damned to hell.

And I'm not a hallalujah boy,I was actively on the 'other guys' side for awhile.I KNOW he's a liar. God CANNOT lie. I NEVER preach to others,just offering my point of view. You make your own decisions in life.
I'm not overbearing about it. I have asked friends who don't go to church to go with me. I have given a buddy who didn't go to church a bible before.
 

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These people care about you, and are trying to help you along the way.
i'm sorry, but this is simply not true.

issues of religion, being based entirely upon faith and ignorance, require in most people, constant reassurance that their perceived 'truth' is the correct one.

these people go out not out of care of others, but for self fulfillment.

the only 'help along the way' being sought is re-enforcing their own beliefs; either thru the ego stroking agreement made by those strangers appearing to be receptive of 'the good news' or the opportunity afforded to dismiss as 'lost' those who reject such 'salvation'.

there is no selflessness in this act whatsoever.

Coming on to a forum, and generalizing about how religious people act, is definitely not necessary.
well clearly it was deemed necessary by the original poster; such is the offence caused by these religious people you seem to think are purely benevolent.

and unless you expect posters to name individually all those that follow a theological system, generalisations are to be endured. if you share the same faith as those being complained about, but not the same behaviour, you ought not feel that you're being 'tarred with the same brush'.


...if I'm right, great, I don't go to hell. If I decide to be an atheist and I'm wrong, well, that would suck. If I live my life as a Christian and follow the values therein, and I'm wrong about heaven and hell, so what...I've live a moral life and that's that.
here is the suggestion that christian values = cover your own arse.

sadly my impression of an all seeing and ALL knowing deity, is that if you had 'faith' purely out of fear of going to hell, as opposed to 'love for a heavenly father', then such a god is gonna know, and will smite you far more than they would any sincere and genuine agnostic!

as for religiously derived morality..... well, thoughts on birth control, homosexuality and all other sexually deviant acts seen from 'dodgey padres' suggests that the church is the absolute last authority to speak on such matters.

this is of course besides the point that such a values system is as subjective as 'good versus evil' and is therefore irrelevent in any modern day civilisation.


We ALL have sinned but Jesus,I truly believe that we can be redeemed by true acceptence of Jesus.Even those who have found God are yet sinners. ALL are sinners,if you truly make an effort to avoid sinning and accept Jesus,you can some day find God.
what makes you think that any of what you say here is true? i am not trying to be a smart arse, but (being completely selfish) simply trying to figure a few things out.

i used to believe. i never went to church on a weekly basis, as i thought that any such relationship with a 'creator' is too personal to be pandered to by some guy in a frock telling you to sing songs which only meant something a few hundred years ago. but i said my prayers and not for 'please strike down my enemies and let me win the lottery' but offering genuine gratitude for all that i had.

to this day, i am a 'cup half full kinda guy' and i try to take nothing for granted, (even tho at the same time i am told i am cynical and pessimistic). but since then, i discovered genetic and darwinian theory and frankly, this is a WHOLE LOT MORE CONVINCING.

if there is a god (and i cannot deny a possibility of their existing) and i was given a gift of this mind, this body, this life.... then i would be 'sinning' to ignore the 'facts' as my intellect perceives them, by indulging in the nonsense which so clearly is, modern day organised religion; christianity being the primary form!

And I'm not a hallalujah boy,I was actively on the 'other guys' side for awhile.I KNOW he's a liar. God CANNOT lie. I NEVER preach to others,just offering my point of view. You make your own decisions in life.
god cannot lie? who knows? who has ever spoken to god? you think you can hear god's word in your own mind... or are you just delusional? you listen to the pope or a local priest, but they are mere mortal men and as such, are weak enuff to lie themselves! so who knows god cannot lie, when the person who told you this was a human, who most certainly can lie!!?


I don't have the mindset of a religion being better than another. As long as they preach positive things , I have no problem.
i used to share this opinion but now, i have zero tolerance of all religion. it is supposed to be a concept of 'brotherly love' and inclusion. but in reality, where any religion suggests their's is the ONLY true and righteous way, then it is a truism that all other ways are bad and to be avoided.

with such an underlying string of logic as this, ALL RELIGION is exclusive and thus inflammatory. each serves to undermine the quality of life in others, by presuming a sense of superiority. this is in no way a 'positive thing' IMO.



That's incorrect. Killing is not always a sin. Moses killed an Egyptian who was beating a slave. David killed Goliath. I can go on and on.
moses and david are both old testament stories; you need to get with the new (or did god sarcifice his son for nothing?)

you are supposed to turn the other cheek. there is no eye for an eye... killing is a sin. there is nothing to protect in this life (a life on earth being so finite and brief in duration) which is worth jeopardising a life in paradise for an eternity.

you might think you are protecting your wife and kids, but if the devil sends one of his minions to murder you family, that demon is doomed to hell but your relatives get a quick pass into the heavenly afterlife!

would you really begrudge them escaping this hellish planet if you truly believed in such a heaven?

or are you just sustaining their life on earth (and thus not with the heavenly father) for you own personal gratification?

that isn't very nice now is it?

I'm not overbearing about it. I have asked friends who don't go to church to go with me. I have given a buddy who didn't go to church a bible before.
and why did you do that if not for personal fulfillment and gratification? be honest now; lies make baby jesus cry!
 

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Discussion Starter #15
yea, I dont have a problem with the message itself so much as the way some people (not all - this is for my friend wingsnut) go about trying to deliver said message.

Another time i was at university, i was on my way to someplace i forget now lol it was last year sometime but these Mormons were there with their table set up with info and bibles and I chatted with them a bit asking about their beliefs in my friendly way - and when i decided to leave one of them stepped right in front of me, blocking my path and obscuring my vision tbh....and tried to hand me a bible . When i politely turned him down and tried to leave, he moved with me and wouldnt let me go. Stayed in front of me blocking me physically and I only was able to leave when his cell phone rang and he had no choice but to let me go.
 

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i'm sorry, but this is simply not true.

issues of religion, being based entirely upon faith and ignorance, require in most people, constant reassurance that their perceived 'truth' is the correct one.

these people go out not out of care of others, but for self fulfillment.

the only 'help along the way' being sought is re-enforcing their own beliefs; either thru the ego stroking agreement made by those strangers appearing to be receptive of 'the good news' or the opportunity afforded to dismiss as 'lost' those who reject such 'salvation'.

there is no selflessness in this act whatsoever.
That's your opinion. You're entitled to it as much as you're entitled to being wrong. Have at it.

well clearly it was deemed necessary by the original poster; such is the offence caused by these religious people you seem to think are purely benevolent.

and unless you expect posters to name individually all those that follow a theological system, generalisations are to be endured. if you share the same faith as those being complained about, but not the same behaviour, you ought not feel that you're being 'tarred with the same brush'.
This is your way of justifying the painting with a broad brush. If I said all Pens fans are a$$holes and are blindly in love with Crosby regardless of his whining, diving, and theatrics and then I turn around say, don't get pissed about it because if you don't fit that description, you shouldn't be offended, is that ok?

What if I said all n*ggers are welfare whores? Is it ok for me to say that because I'm telling those who aren't in that crowd not to be offended because they don't fit that description?

* - Disclaimer: I'm not racist, I'm just trying to come up with something that is completely off the wall offensive to say and then justify it by telling those who don't group themselves in that description not be offended by it because they don't fit in with that crowd.

here is the suggestion that christian values = cover your own arse.

sadly my impression of an all seeing and ALL knowing deity, is that if you had 'faith' purely out of fear of going to hell, as opposed to 'love for a heavenly father', then such a god is gonna know, and will smite you far more than they would any sincere and genuine agnostic!

as for religiously derived morality..... well, thoughts on birth control, homosexuality and all other sexually deviant acts seen from 'dodgey padres' suggests that the church is the absolute last authority to speak on such matters.

this is of course besides the point that such a values system is as subjective as 'good versus evil' and is therefore irrelevent in any modern day civilisation.
I never said these are my views. I'm simply saying, if I was an atheist, I have to take a hard long thought process about my decision making based on the odds of what happens after I die.

Basically, if you're an atheist, you better pray to God you're right about the non-existence of a heaven, hell, or God.

what makes you think that any of what you say here is true? i am not trying to be a smart arse, but (being completely selfish) simply trying to figure a few things out.

i used to believe. i never went to church on a weekly basis, as i thought that any such relationship with a 'creator' is too personal to be pandered to by some guy in a frock telling you to sing songs which only meant something a few hundred years ago. but i said my prayers and not for 'please strike down my enemies and let me win the lottery' but offering genuine gratitude for all that i had.

to this day, i am a 'cup half full kinda guy' and i try to take nothing for granted, (even tho at the same time i am told i am cynical and pessimistic). but since then, i discovered genetic and darwinian theory and frankly, this is a WHOLE LOT MORE CONVINCING.

if there is a god (and i cannot deny a possibility of their existing) and i was given a gift of this mind, this body, this life.... then i would be 'sinning' to ignore the 'facts' as my intellect perceives them, by indulging in the nonsense which so clearly is, modern day organised religion; christianity being the primary form!
Part of all religion is an element of faith. If you don't believe in God, Christianity, or any of the like, explain to me how the world came to be as it is. Explain the formation of the earth. There are so many principles in Darwin that are contradictory to what actually happens, it's fascinating that people actually believe in his theories. The same can be said of the Big Bang Theory.

On Darwin, for example, if homosexuals have no evolutionary value because they can't breed and create offspring, homosexuals will go extinct as they can't reproduce. Yet, we have homosexuals to this day. That means it's not hereditary and can't be spread through the maintaining of genes and birth.

On the formation of the earth and the solar system...if there is no all-knowing, omnipotent being, how was everything created? Science says energy cannot be created or destroyed...where did all the original energy come from?

On evolution, science has shown that various stages of what was thought to be an evolutionary process from Neanderthals to cavemen to eventual modern man isn't true.

Can science explain how the solar system was strung in such a perfect manner to provide and protect the necessary conditions on earth to maintain life?

Can science explain how the intricate and minute details of how the human body is made up? Can science explain how we got here if it was not for a Creation? Logic says that the creation can never be greater than the creator. How can something evolve into something greater and smarter than it previously was?


You have a very skewed view of the purpose of the church if you think it's nothing more than pandering a message and singing songs that only meant something a couple hundred years ago. When was the last time you were in a church? When was the last time you actually looked at the verses of hymns, even the old ones, let alone any music written within, say, the last 100 years? 10 years? Last year?

god cannot lie? who knows? who has ever spoken to god? you think you can hear god's word in your own mind... or are you just delusional? you listen to the pope or a local priest, but they are mere mortal men and as such, are weak enuff to lie themselves! so who knows god cannot lie, when the person who told you this was a human, who most certainly can lie!!?
Again, there's that faith thing you struggle with. If you require scientific explanations and data proving every claim, then you have no faith. If you have no faith, then you don't believe.

How do you explain the miracles that happen around the world? One that sticks out in my mind is the window washer that fell 47 stories and survived? How does that happen? He fell 47 stories and managed not to strike his head...how? Neglecting wind resistance, he was traveling over 120 mph when he hit the ground. Explain how he didn't hit his head, let alone survived.

Hint: (Final Speed, Dropped From Rest) = √(2*g*H)
g = 9.8m/s/s, H = 150 meters


i used to share this opinion but now, i have zero tolerance of all religion. it is supposed to be a concept of 'brotherly love' and inclusion. but in reality, where any religion suggests their's is the ONLY true and righteous way, then it is a truism that all other ways are bad and to be avoided.

with such an underlying string of logic as this, ALL RELIGION is exclusive and thus inflammatory. each serves to undermine the quality of life in others, by presuming a sense of superiority. this is in no way a 'positive thing' IMO.
Doesn't this sound like the description of being a sports fan? Your team is superior and we must ridicule all fans and members of the opposition?


moses and david are both old testament stories; you need to get with the new (or did god sarcifice his son for nothing?)

you are supposed to turn the other cheek. there is no eye for an eye... killing is a sin. there is nothing to protect in this life (a life on earth being so finite and brief in duration) which is worth jeopardising a life in paradise for an eternity.
"For I am the Lord, I do not change" (Malachi 3:6).

The Bible says in Luke 22:35-38 -"35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. 36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. 37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end. 38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough."

For those who do not have a sword, sell the clothes off your back if you must to purchase one.

See this:
The Christian pacifist may try to argue that God has changed His mind from the time that He gave Moses the Ten Commandments on Mount Sinai. Perhaps they would want us to think that Christ canceled out the Ten Commandments in Exodus 20 or the provision for justifiably killing a thief in Exodus 22. But the writer of Hebrews makes it clear that this cannot be, because "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever" (Hebrews 13:8). In the Old Testament, the prophet Malachi records God's words this way: "For I am the Lord, I do not change" (Malachi 3:6).

Paul was referring to the unchangeability of God's Word when he wrote to Timothy that "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work" (2 Timothy 3:16-17). Clearly, Paul viewed all Scripture, including the Old Testament, as useful for training Christians in every area of life.

We must also consider what Christ told his disciples in his last hours with them: "...But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a sack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one" (Luke 22:36). Keep in mind that the sword was the finest offensive weapon available to an individual soldier -- the equivalent then of a military rifle today.

The Christian pacifist will likely object at this point that only a few hours later, Christ rebuked Peter who used a sword to cut off the ear of Malchus, a servant of the high priest in the company of a detachment of troops. Let us read what Christ said to Peter in Matthew 26:52-54:

Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword. Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels? How then could the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?

In the companion passage in John 18, Jesus tells Peter to put his sword away and told him that He had to drink the cup that His Father had given Him. It was not the first time that Christ had to explain to the disciples why He had come to earth. To fulfill the Scriptures, the Son of God had to die for the sin of man since man was incapable of paying for his own sin apart from going to hell. Christ could have saved His life, but then believers would have lost their lives forever in hell. These things only became clear to the disciples after Christ had died and been raised from the dead and the Spirit had come into the world at Pentecost (see John 14:26).

While Christ told Peter to "put your sword in its place" He clearly did not say get rid of it forever. That would have contradicted what he had told the disciples only hours before. Peter's sword was to protect his own mortal life from danger. His sword was not needed to protect the Creator of the universe and the King of kings.

Years after Pentecost, Paul wrote in a letter to Timothy "But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever" (1 Tim. 5:8). This passage applies to our subject because it would be absurd to buy a house, furnish it with food and facilities for one's family, and then refuse to install locks and provide the means to protect the family and the property. Likewise it would be absurd not to take, if necessary, the life of a night-time thief to protect the members of the family (Exodus 22:2-3).
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Tell your wife she isn't worth protecting as the risk of losing eternal paradise is too great. Tell your children you can't afford to take the risk of protecting them, by giving your life or by the taking of those who wish to do your family harm. I hope they take it well.



you might think you are protecting your wife and kids, but if the devil sends one of his minions to murder you family, that demon is doomed to hell but your relatives get a quick pass into the heavenly afterlife!

would you really begrudge them escaping this hellish planet if you truly believed in such a heaven?

or are you just sustaining their life on earth (and thus not with the heavenly father) for you own personal gratification?

that isn't very nice now is it?
Would you prefer your wife and kids to live long and fulfilling lives and die peacefully of old age or would you prefer them to be raped and tortured on their way to a heinous murder at the hands of another person? Ask them what they want. It's not about what I want, it's what my wife wants. If she would prefer to be murdered, fine. But that's not what she wants and I guarantee that's not what your wife or kids want.

If one of your kids gets knifed and dies in the street, don't bother pressing changes against the killer since he/she did you and your kid a favor by sending him/her to that eternal paradise you don't believe in.


and why did you do that if not for personal fulfillment and gratification? be honest now; lies make baby jesus cry!
Because I have faith in what I believe in. I do believe there is a heaven and hell. Just like I would steer a friend away from a bad job or a bad relationship, although those are on a minute scale compared to life after death, I would do the same in steering a friend towards heaven and away from hell in the same way. I do that because I care. Can I prove there is a heaven and a hell? Nope. Do I believe those do exist, yes. I'm doing an injustice to my friend if I don't share with him. It is his choice to accept or reject. His choice in no way affects my salvation.

I hope your mocking of "baby jesus" makes you feel like you're better than me. I hope it makes you happy and feel good. I hope it's part of your "half-full kind of guy" lifestyle. When your day comes, you will find out if the decisions and choices you have made were wise or not. Good luck to you.



Don't forget to ask your kids and wife if they would prefer to be murdered with you as an audience so they can get to that heaven you don't believe in faster than had they not been murdered.

Do let us know what they say.
 

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i'm sorry, but this is simply not true.

issues of religion, being based entirely upon faith and ignorance, require in most people, constant reassurance that their perceived 'truth' is the correct one.

these people go out not out of care of others, but for self fulfillment.

the only 'help along the way' being sought is re-enforcing their own beliefs; either thru the ego stroking agreement made by those strangers appearing to be receptive of 'the good news' or the opportunity afforded to dismiss as 'lost' those who reject such 'salvation'.

there is no selflessness in this act whatsoever.
How do you know this is true? Can you read peoples intentions? Are you in some way omniscient that you know what purpose is behind people trying to share their religion with other people?

You may deem yourself intelligent, but in no way can you know what peoples intentions are in trying to share their religion. I walk religious circles and talk with these people all the time. They are worried about others who have not accepted as truth what they have. They feel lost and even depressed over the fact that people close to them have rejected Christianity. These are not selfish, ego-stroking people.
 

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Ok I've read a good part of the thread but must admit the itch to post my own opinion made me skip ahead ;)

The fundumental difference between agnostic, atheist and religious beliefs in my opinion is their basis for argument and that's where I have a problem with strong atheist in that it's hypocrite to claim religion as wrong without stating the possiblity of being wrong him/her self. Just as I have a problem with Religious people who believe to be right without logical arguments, I find them worst however as their belief often involves recruitment tactics, much as in a propaganda campaign during the cold war. Because we don't have the capabilities to explain some things doesn'T grant it as the all mighty space noodle's realm.

I like the agnostic basis of thinking which is much as the scientific method. Leave nothing out, recognize the realistic impossiblity of absolutes and found your conclusions around what is more plausible based on what is being observed, not an old book writen by people who could barely irrigate their farm lands properly.


And finally I guess in the end none of the above really bother me just as long as they don't mix with state affaires and public life. It sickens me to see some governing bodies teaching a science that has no scientifc grounds such as the theory of Intellegant Design and Creationism, you don't teach based on the mass's wishful thinking less we rather live in the dark ages again.

On the original topic I have a very hard time with public recruitings of belief systems, I think it's up to the familly and it's community (as in church) to take charge of that and keep it amongst themselves and people who truely are interested in the matter and came to them on their own accord. For everything else you teach what has been studied, and leave it to the individual to interpret the results in an educated manner.
 

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Sorry about the double post but I have to make a seperate point about the topic.

Thinking that someone who lacks faith in a higher omnipotent being as someone who's values, morals and ethics to be absant or aquired with difficulty is ignorant, arrogant and plain stupid (especially since I'm yet to read a decent unbiased study backing it up).

My personal opinion on that matter is that I rather have been thought morals from my familly and community then taking the easy way out and just take the guidelines from a book without even understanding the reasoning behind half these values. A value aquired through thinking is worth a hundred times the value aquired through fear of sin.

Besides I rather ''worship'' the acheivments of the Homo Sapien and how far we've gone then some being who takes all the credit for every acheivment we made and gets off clean from the responsiblity of every hardship we had to endure.
 

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The fundumental difference between agnostic, atheist and religious beliefs in my opinion is their basis for argument and that's where I have a problem with strong atheist in that it's hypocrite to claim religion as wrong without stating the possiblity of being wrong him/her self. Just as I have a problem with Religious people who believe to be right without logical arguments, I find them worst however as their belief often involves recruitment tactics, much as in a propaganda campaign during the cold war. Because we don't have the capabilities to explain some things doesn'T grant it as the all mighty space noodle's realm.
No, not all things that cannot be explained are chalked up to the necessity of faith...that goes for any religion. None of my posts in this thread were intended to "recruit" as you so put it. I don't recruit, I'm not the ARMY.

I like the agnostic basis of thinking which is much as the scientific method. Leave nothing out, recognize the realistic impossiblity of absolutes and found your conclusions around what is more plausible based on what is being observed, not an old book writen by people who could barely irrigate their farm lands properly.
And what does technology have to do with religion and faith? Those who didn't believe in a particular religion at the time had just as much difficulty with the daily work of farming and generally in life...what's your point?

And finally I guess in the end none of the above really bother me just as long as they don't mix with state affaires and public life. It sickens me to see some governing bodies teaching a science that has no scientifc grounds such as the theory of Intellegant Design and Creationism, you don't teach based on the mass's wishful thinking less we rather live in the dark ages again.
The same can be said about evolution...evolution is an attempt, a theory, to explain life on earth as much as Intelligent Design and Creationism are. So how do you suggest it be taught? Both sides of the coin contradict the other.

On the original topic I have a very hard time with public recruitings of belief systems, I think it's up to the familly and it's community (as in church) to take charge of that and keep it amongst themselves and people who truely are interested in the matter and came to them on their own accord. For everything else you teach what has been studied, and leave it to the individual to interpret the results in an educated manner.
Well, on that note, too bad. Most religions have some degree of evangelism and "spreading the word." I haven't seen anything in this thread that constitutes recruiting. I have seen bashing of people who are religious and painting with broad brushes about all people who have some sort of religious beliefs.

If you apply your concept of huddling together and letting people find you to everything, just toss out the entire advertising and marketing businesses. Some people need help finding what they need. Some don't know what they need.

Thinking that someone who lacks faith in a higher omnipotent being as someone who's values, morals and ethics to be absant or aquired with difficulty is ignorant, arrogant and plain stupid (especially since I'm yet to read a decent unbiased study backing it up).
I haven't seen any of this either in this thread. I do want to ask if the Bible is wrong, Christianity is wrong, and all the other religions are wrong and complete fabrications...say we even evolved...who created the concept of social society? Who created the rules of a "civilized" society?


My personal opinion on that matter is that I rather have been thought morals from my familly and community then taking the easy way out and just take the guidelines from a book without even understanding the reasoning behind half these values. A value aquired through thinking is worth a hundred times the value aquired through fear of sin.
This is your opinion, but where did those principles come from? Where did your parents get them from? The 10 Commandments, for example, are pretty self-explanatory and don't need much time for reflection to comprehend their meaning. It's not a fear of sin. It's that thou shall not murder is self-evident, as are the others.

Besides I rather ''worship'' the acheivments of the Homo Sapien and how far we've gone then some being who takes all the credit for every acheivment we made and gets off clean from the responsiblity of every hardship we had to endure.
How far we've gone? How far have we gone? We saw how many millions of people murdered in the last 100 years? We developed the technology to destroy life on earth completely. We've developed a database system to maintain the whereabouts of sexual predators. We still have no way of preventing natural disasters. We have no cure for cancer, Alzheimer's, AIDS, etc.
 
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