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Discussion Starter #1
Bertuzzi, Auld, and Allen for Luongo, Krajicek (or however it's spelled. Who cares?) and a 6th rounder this year (this was the real deal breaker, I'm sure.).

What the hell?
 

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There is a New Goalie In Town

At last Canucks fan have a goaltender that they can believe in at the beginning of the season, but there are still questions about what should be done with Roberto Luongo.

1) Do you sign him to a long term deal now, or do you wait for his performance in the regular season to see if he's really the right guy?

2) How much are you willing to commit to this guy for how long?

3) What is going to be the chemistry of the other five players on the ice? Does the team shift to a more defensive game, or does the team stick to a run and gun game knowing there is a capable goaltender in front of them?

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1) I think that the Canucks need to sign him as soon as possible. He won't come any cheaper if the team wins. I would commit four to five million into this guy if he'll accept the offer now. If he proves to be a winner and the guy that this team should be built around a six million-six and a half million dollar deal would be acceptable.

2) I wouldn't want to give the guy seven million, it just limits the ability to pursue other options for this team. The cap flucuates. Nonis has to keep this in mind. I would like to have him sign a three year deal at five million, but chances are he won't accept that so I would have no problem matching one of the deals Florida offered him. I'd wait until the regular season for anything more.

3) The best answer is the team needs to play a two way game. If Luongo, the Sedins, and Bourdon become the new core of this team that will happen. this Does mean that there will not be a fifteen million dollar first line in the future of this team. The big line won't be making that big of money.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
According to his agent, Louongo won't sign a long-term deal.

I can't wait until he signs for a year or so, and then leaves town and we're left with Kraijcek and whoever we pick up in the 6th round.
 

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This is a deal Nonis needed to take a serious look at. The details haven't been released yet, so that means he may have traded only the rights to Auld and Allen, they aren't signed.

What Nonis did do was pull the trigger on a big deal. The team needed an elite goalie, he got one. The team needed to get rid of Bertuzzi for quality NHL talent. He did that.

The Canucks get a pick, they need to start building their draft stock up a little, they've fired tons of blanks and any picks helps this teams youth.

Krajicek has the ability to develop into a good powerplay quarterback.

We didn't get the dream deal of Luongo and Van Ryn, but at the least we got rid of Bertuzzi, got and elite goaltender, and brought in some youth with potential to rack up points on the blueline.

Remember the Joe Thornton deal? The Sharks gave up a good scorer (Sturm), a great two way blueliner (Stuart), and a physical player (Primeau).

If Luongo gives the Canucks Vezina caliber goaltending like he has done a couple years in Florida, the Canucks will be a much better team. To get a great player, you have to give up some good ones.
 

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You're complaining???

You got a franchise goalie. Of course there are no guarantees that he will sign long-term, but come on... its a great trade for the Cancuks... you should be bowing at Nonis' feet for pulling that off, since apparently Bertuzzi didn't have much value left.

Keenan is the one who should be questioned. Rumors were going around that he could have gotten a much better package from LA.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
AtLossForWords said:
This is a deal Nonis needed to take a serious look at. The details haven't been released yet, so that means he may have traded only the rights to Auld and Allen, they aren't signed.

What Nonis did do was pull the trigger on a big deal. The team needed an elite goalie, he got one. The team needed to get rid of Bertuzzi for quality NHL talent. He did that.

The Canucks get a pick, they need to start building their draft stock up a little, they've fired tons of blanks and any picks helps this teams youth.

Krajicek has the ability to develop into a good powerplay quarterback.

We didn't get the dream deal of Luongo and Van Ryn, but at the least we got rid of Bertuzzi, got and elite goaltender, and brought in some youth with potential to rack up points on the blueline.

Remember the Joe Thornton deal? The Sharks gave up a good scorer (Sturm), a great two way blueliner (Stuart), and a physical player (Primeau).

If Luongo gives the Canucks Vezina caliber goaltending like he has done a couple years in Florida, the Canucks will be a much better team. To get a great player, you have to give up some good ones.
I'm of the mindset that trading Bertuzzi wasn't what the Canucks needed to do, and also that Jovo is likely not coming back. With that in mind, I see this as trading a guy who could very well come back full force and dominate next season, a #4 defenceman (which really is the last position we should be liquidating), and a solid goalie with trememdous upside, for a goalie who may/may not be highly over-rated, and a defenseman who is, at best, and even tradeoff for Allen. A 6th round pick is, realistically, not gonna get you much, especially in this draft year.

I don't really buy into us failing at the draft lately. We've had Umberger, who is a very solid player (just not for us, but that's not the scouts' fault), Kesler who will probably be a solid 2nd/3rd line centre, Bourdon who almost made the team last year and looks like he's going to be the real deal, and Schneider who looks to be progressing quite well. If we had held on to Umberger and he was in our lineup, nobody would be complaining about our recent drafting.

If the Canucks are going into a rebuilding cycle, then that changes things completely, obviously. I guess what I don't like is that this trade really hinges on our ability to unload Cloutier for some reasonable return, and Jovo resigning.
 

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There was speculation that Luongo was just jerking Keenan around. If that's true, then he can be signed here. If the Canucks do sign this guy, that makes this deal even better. Let's see what he can do this season, and wait for the details of contracts and cap restraints. At the least we have gotten a franchise goalie that stabalizes this team.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
AtLossForWords said:
There was speculation that Luongo was just jerking Keenan around. If that's true, then he can be signed here. If the Canucks do sign this guy, that makes this deal even better. Let's see what he can do this season, and wait for the details of contracts and cap restraints. At the least we have gotten a franchise goalie that stabalizes this team.
If Loungo signs long-term, and we do actually get some reasonable value for Cloutier, then this is looking not as bad. I still think that Auld and Allen was a bit much.

I still think that Bertuzzi will/would have played with a chip on his shoulder and something to prove next season. Although, now I'm hoping that Keenan gets on his case, and Bertuzzi tunes him out and loafs it all year.
 

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M.W. said:
I'm of the mindset that trading Bertuzzi wasn't what the Canucks needed to do, and also that Jovo is likely not coming back. With that in mind, I see this as trading a guy who could very well come back full force and dominate next season, a #4 defenceman (which really is the last position we should be liquidating), and a solid goalie with trememdous upside, for a goalie who may/may not be highly over-rated, and a defenseman who is, at best, and even tradeoff for Allen. A 6th round pick is, realistically, not gonna get you much, especially in this draft year.

I don't really buy into us failing at the draft lately. We've had Umberger, who is a very solid player (just not for us, but that's not the scouts' fault), Kesler who will probably be a solid 2nd/3rd line centre, Bourdon who almost made the team last year and looks like he's going to be the real deal, and Schneider who looks to be progressing quite well. If we had held on to Umberger and he was in our lineup, nobody would be complaining about our recent drafting.

If the Canucks are going into a rebuilding cycle, then that changes things completely, obviously. I guess what I don't like is that this trade really hinges on our ability to unload Cloutier for some reasonable return, and Jovo resigning.
Bertuzzi needed to go. He wore out his welcome here in B.C., and he was causing problems in the dressing room. They would have got more for Bertuzzi than they ever would have got for Morrison. One of those guys HAD to go.

Let's look at our draft history over the past years.
1995
40 D Chris McAllister (bust)
1996
12 C Josh Holden (bust)
1997
10 D Brad Ference
1998
4 D Bryan Allen (you call him a first round talent?)
1999
2 L Daniel Sedin
3 C Henrik Sedin (both coming into form now)
2000
23 C Nathan Smith (six years where is he?)

The Canucks haven't had great success draft. Holden is probably the biggest disappointment. Getting a few more picks is worth it. They might not get someone ready to contribute next year in the sixth round, but they could still acquire someone who can develop into a good player.

Matt Cooke was a seventh round pick. He's done more than most of those players like Holden have done for this team.
 

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M.W. said:
If Loungo signs long-term, and we do actually get some reasonable value for Cloutier, then this is looking not as bad. I still think that Auld and Allen was a bit much.

I still think that Bertuzzi will/would have played with a chip on his shoulder and something to prove next season. Although, now I'm hoping that Keenan gets on his case, and Bertuzzi tunes him out and loafs it all year.
With Cloutier gone a mid level sniper (30 goals) or a two way blueliner (e.g. Lydman), this team is already deeper than they were last year. With the goaltender the supposed caliber of Luongo, the guys in front of him can play a more confident and relaxed (not as in slouch) game. The RFAs are the focus now. The Sedins and Kesler need to be resigned.

I personally would like to see Jovanovski go. His injuries were a result of poor conditioning. We can dream about Lidstrom or Redden, but overall if our defense looks somewhat like this, I'm satisfied.

Ohlund Salo
(Mitchell) Bourdon
(Lydman) Krajicek
Bieksa
I'm much more optimistic about the team. Bourdon and Krajicek is the x-factor. Bieksa plays solid in his own end judging from last year. This blueline would be much more mobile and hopefully put up more points.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
AtLossForWords said:
Bertuzzi needed to go. He wore out his welcome here in B.C., and he was causing problems in the dressing room. They would have got more for Bertuzzi than they ever would have got for Morrison. One of those guys HAD to go.

Let's look at our draft history over the past years.
1995
40 D Chris McAllister (bust)
1996
12 C Josh Holden (bust)
1997
10 D Brad Ference
1998
4 D Bryan Allen (you call him a first round talent?)
1999
2 L Daniel Sedin
3 C Henrik Sedin (both coming into form now)
2000
23 C Nathan Smith (six years where is he?)

The Canucks haven't had great success draft. Holden is probably the biggest disappointment. Getting a few more picks is worth it. They might not get someone ready to contribute next year in the sixth round, but they could still acquire someone who can develop into a good player.
With the draft, I was referring to recent years under the current leadership. Obviously we had crappy drafting in the mid/late 90s, but we had crappy everything in the mid/late 90s. From 01 onward, we've done reasonably well.
 

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M.W. said:
With the draft, I was referring to recent years under the current leadership. Obviously we had crappy drafting in the mid/late 90s, but we had crappy everything in the mid/late 90s. From 01 onward, we've done reasonably well.
That's my point about firing blanks. These players should be developing into quality NHLers. The stock in the NHL like Naslund, Ohlund, Salo, and Morrison will age and drop in stock. You need to keep your minor teams strong to have depth come in and mature and your vetereans get old.

A sixth round pick won't draft you Brett Hull, but it will give you someone that can develop into a good second or third liner that your team will need.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
AtLossForWords said:
With Cloutier gone a mid level sniper (30 goals) or a two way blueliner (e.g. Lydman), this team is already deeper than they were last year. With the goaltender the supposed caliber of Luongo, the guys in front of him can play a more confident and relaxed (not as in slouch) game. The RFAs are the focus now. The Sedins and Kesler need to be resigned.

I personally would like to see Jovanovski go. His injuries were a result of poor conditioning. We can dream about Lidstrom or Redden, but overall if our defense looks somewhat like this, I'm satisfied.

Ohlund Salo
(Mitchell) Bourdon
(Lydman) Krajicek
Bieksa
I'm much more optimistic about the team. Bourdon and Krajicek is the x-factor. Bieksa plays solid in his own end judging from last year. This blueline would be much more mobile and hopefully put up more points.
I agree with you on Jovo. I think that a lot of people completely forgot about a lot of his downsides, just because of those few games he played down the stretch after returning from injury last year (an injury that, as you said, was likely the result of poor conditioning while sitting around in Florida during the lockout.).

I think that Bourdon as a #4 is pretty optimistic, and that lineup still leaves us very screwed in case of an injury.
 

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M.W. said:
I agree with you on Jovo. I think that a lot of people completely forgot about a lot of his downsides, just because of those few games he played down the stretch after returning from injury last year (an injury that, as you said, was likely the result of poor conditioning while sitting around in Florida during the lockout.).

I think that Bourdon as a #4 is pretty optimistic, and that lineup still leaves us very screwed in case of an injury.
It's not the deepest, but it's better than last years.

Ohlund Salo
Jovanovski Baumgartner
Carney Allen
Brown

but it was really more like

Ohlund Bieksa
Allen Baumgartner
Carney Weinrich

That's just awful.

Hopefull with the olympics gone for the next three years, Ohlund, Salo, and (Jovanovski) wojn't all go down at the same time.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
AtLossForWords said:
That's my point about firing blanks. These players should be developing into quality NHLers. The stock in the NHL like Naslund, Ohlund, Salo, and Morrison will age and drop in stock. You need to keep your minor teams strong to have depth come in and mature and your vetereans get old.

A sixth round pick won't draft you Brett Hull, but it will give you someone that can develop into a good second or third liner that your team will need.
I understand that, but drafting a pile of high rounders this year isn't going to fill that in. They just have to take those years as a loss, and fill in the holes in the system with depth-type players from other places, like the recent signings from european leagues.

I will say this: 1.) The title of this thread was a joke. I wasn't as outraged as I put on, but I do think that we gave up a bit much. 2.) To me this trade seems to be sortof reactionary, like the Crawford firing. I think that Bertuzzi's bad year was pretty understandable, and that he would probably have been back in form next season. 3.) If they pick up some sort of legitimate 1st line winger, resign carter and the sedins, and somehow scrape together a couple solid defensemen, then this isn't looking so bad, but one big trade doesn't really give me the confidence that Nonis will get that done.
 

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M.W. said:
I understand that, but drafting a pile of high rounders this year isn't going to fill that in. They just have to take those years as a loss, and fill in the holes in the system with depth-type players from other places, like the recent signings from european leagues.

I will say this: 1.) The title of this thread was a joke. I wasn't as outraged as I put on, but I do think that we gave up a bit much. 2.) To me this trade seems to be sortof reactionary, like the Crawford firing. I think that Bertuzzi's bad year was pretty understandable, and that he would probably have been back in form next season. 3.) If they pick up some sort of legitimate 1st line winger, resign carter and the sedins, and somehow scrape together a couple solid defensemen, then this isn't looking so bad.
I figured that, I don't recall you to be an angry nucker.

Reactionary? Fans and media have wanted a true number one for years. It's a long time coming from my perspective.

This is what I'm hoping for:

Naslund Morrison Recchi
Sedin Sedin Carter
Cooke Kesler King
Burrows Santala Ruutu
Rypien Green Bailej (depth)

Ohlund Salo
Numminen Bourdon
Mitchell Bieksa
Brown

Luongo
Noronen

I haven't looked at the cap, but that would be a very solid team a true contender. What worries me is the lack of Stanley Cup experience. Recchi's got it, but he seems to be the only one who has gotten that far. Longshot if he would sign too. He's a B.C., so he might come around, especially if the numbers are right.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
AtLossForWords said:
I figured that, I don't recall you to be an angry nucker.

Reactionary? Fans and media have wanted a true number one for years. It's a long time coming from my perspective.

This is what I'm hoping for:

Naslund Morrison Recchi
Sedin Sedin Carter
Cooke Kesler King
Burrows Santala Ruutu
Rypien Green Bailej (depth)

Ohlund Salo
Numminen Bourdon
Mitchell Bieksa
Brown

Luongo
Noronen

I haven't looked at the cap, but that would be a very solid team a true contender. What worries me is the lack of Stanley Cup experience. Recchi's got it, but he seems to be the only one who has gotten that far. Longshot if he would sign too. He's a B.C., so he might come around, especially if the numbers are right.
Yeah, I doubt that Recchi is coming here.

I think that lineup is sorta built on hoping that Kesler and King have continued to develop, although I guess if the Sedins keep up the pace, and you assume that Naslund and Morrison will have better years, then they don't have to pitch in nearly as much, and I still think that Bourdon in the top 4 might be asking a bit much, although I dearly hope that he's that good.

I do really wish that the Canucks had managed to swing a solid forward out of that deal. That would have made me less crotchety about dropping Allen. I think that the hole that Bertuzzi will leave on the Naslund line will be hard to fill, and bigger than just finding a guy with decent stats.

I don't know, it just seems to me that after the season, everyone was screaming and yelling, and so they dropped Crawford. And then people were still screaming and yelling, so they dropped Bertuzzi.

One thing I do hope is that picking up Luongo makes it easier and maybe a bit cheaper to sign other pieces.
 

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M.W. said:
Yeah, I doubt that Recchi is coming here.

I think that lineup is sorta built on hoping that Kesler and King have continued to develop, although I guess if the Sedins keep up the pace, and you assume that Naslund and Morrison will have better years, then they don't have to pitch in nearly as much, and I still think that Bourdon in the top 4 might be asking a bit much, although I dearly hope that he's that good.

I do really wish that the Canucks had managed to swing a solid forward out of that deal. That would have made me less crotchety about dropping Allen. I think that the hole that Bertuzzi will leave on the Naslund line will be hard to fill, and bigger than just finding a guy with decent stats.

I don't know, it just seems to me that after the season, everyone was screaming and yelling, and so they dropped Crawford. And then people were still screaming and yelling, so they dropped Bertuzzi.

One thing I do hope is that picking up Luongo makes it easier and maybe a bit cheaper to sign other pieces.
Most people predict Bourdon to play solid hockey. That's what this team needs, steady hands playing good positional hockey. Bourdon's a rookie, so if he can do that, he'll be that much better.

People have been screaming for a goaltender for years, and they just got it tonight.

I don't think Crawford canning was as unanimous as the need for a number one netminder and trading Bertuzzi. Many people and blogsters thought Crow would stay. Dan Murphy mentioned it in his blog numerous times he would be back for at least one more season.

We need to know the details about who was signed and for how much. If Bertuzzi was the only guy under contract we traded, it looks like a good deal. It doesn't tear into the Canucks lineup and they have room to sign other players.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
AtLossForWords said:
People have been screaming for a goaltender for years, and they just got it tonight.

We need to know the details about who was signed and for how much. If Bertuzzi was the only guy under contract we traded, it looks like a good deal. It doesn't tear into the Canucks lineup and they have room to sign other players.
I feel that this season, and with a coach who actually isn't allergic to using his backup every now and then, Auld would have been a solid starter. Obviously Luongo is a big upgrade, but Auld would have been solid. I think that Crawford's reluctance to ever use his backups was a big part of Cloutier's fragility, and Auld having some stinkers last year. Also I would hope that his coming up through the ranks of the organization would have raised Auld's willingness to sign long-term, but that might just be me expecting too much of people.

Fair enough, although I doubt that Allen or Auld would have ended up going anywhere. Also, as I stated elsewhere, if the Canucks' D doesn't take so many hits from injury, I think that Allen would have had a major breakout season this past year.

What we need to do is tape Brandon Reid's arms, legs, and head onto Wade Brookebank's torso. I am certain that this is why he was signed.
 

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sportsnet said:
"Luongo is one year away from unrestricted free agency but won't sign a long-term deal with the Panthers, forcing GM Mike Keenan to possibly deal him. But as of Friday evening he wasn't close to trading him."
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/article.jsp?content=20060623_214807_5632

Bertuzzi also has one year left. It looks pretty even to me.

Both teams get one player with a year left and hopefully sign multi-year deals. The Canucks get a potenially good PP quarterback and a sixth round pick who will help their youth, along with Luongo.

The Panthers get the rights to two players, along with Bertuzzi.

The chances are slim, but Allen COULD end up back in Vancouver or somewhere else. It's doubtful but not impossible. I wouldn't bet my life on it, that's for sure.
 
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