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hockeyboy14 said:
Yes and Lemieux was always healthy during the season :rolleyes:
No but he did miss what 3 years in the later part of his career in which you would have seen I'm sure the decline in point production.

if your career ppg where 2 and all of a sudden you had a huge drop and you when from 2 ppg to 1 doesn't that affect your ppg average? So lets say your career never sees that slow decline over a few years cause you missed those years, does that mean your better then a person who has a better ppg total and played all of his declining years?
 

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Badat said:
No but he did miss what 3 years in the later part of his career in which you would have seen I'm sure the decline in point production.

if your career ppg where 2 and all of a sudden you had a huge drop and you when from 2 ppg to 1 doesn't that affect your ppg average? So lets say your career never sees that slow decline over a few years cause you missed those years, does that mean your better then a person who has a better ppg total and played all of his declining years?
Exactly. Also my roster of the oilers in 81-82, showed that gretzky had a crop of good players to play with. I would've like to see him play on a team back then, like today's St.Louis Blues or Blue Jackets.

And, Lemieux was also busy, because he is part owner of the pens
 

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Badat said:
Its funny I don't remeber Bobby Orr scoring 200+ point in more then even one season but oh wait gretzky did it what only 4 times and had more then 150 points in a season 9 times and he was also injured in his Career. There are only 2 times in Wayne's Career that he didn't get as many or more ppg then games played. Orr sadly never got 50 goals in a season gretzky got 50 goals in 50 games then got 50 goals in 39 games.

So because Orr was a defensemen he gets the nod over gretzky as the greatest? Well why not Pual Cofy he took the record for most goals in a season by a Defensemen away from Orr?

Orr played 12 season in the NHL and amassed 900+ points, he would have had to play 10 more seasons gettin 200 points a season to catch gretzky.

Oh and Orr held what 6 NHL records in his time and Gretzky only held or shared a measly 61 at one point or another.
Badat said:
And I didn't say there was anything wrong with that I just thought I would ask why.
do yourself a favour and track down some old bobby orr games. you'll be astounded. there's a lot more to being the best hockey player of all time than raw numbers.
 

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I would say Steve Yzerman, eventhough I don't understand how he is left off this list. During Gretzky and Lemieiux's run, Stevie Y was the next in line as far as skills and point are concerned.
 

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Shooter said:
I would say Steve Yzerman, eventhough I don't understand how he is left off this list. During Gretzky and Lemieiux's run, Stevie Y was the next in line as far as skills and point are concerned.
Or Pat Lafontain
 

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Masterofhockeyknowledge said:
Hello everyone. Whom do you think is the best player to ever exist in the NHL besides Gretzky?

A. Mario Lemieux
B. Gordie Howe
C. Bobby Orr
D. Bobby Clarke
E. Howie Morenz (Never saw him play but I've heard he was a great player.)
F. Stan Mikita
G. Mark Messier
H. Maurice Richard
I. Bobby Hull
J. Other

My pick: Mark Messier. He was a great leader on Edmonton and the Rangers. He was possibly the best leader ever. The Rangers were not at all good until he came and led them to a cup. Once he went to Vancouver he became washed up but still I think he is the best player ever. Besides him it's Mr. Hockey who was an all around player.
I always say Lemieux was the best.

If injuries didnt slow him down, I think he would have the record books.
 

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pavelbure said:
do yourself a favour and track down some old bobby orr games. you'll be astounded. there's a lot more to being the best hockey player of all time than raw numbers.
I've Seen dozens of old Orr games.

So your trying to say that gretzky had less Talent then Orr? Far be it for me to judge Talent but no player Revolutionized the Word "Offense" like gretzky.
 

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Badat said:
I've Seen dozens of old Orr games.

So your trying to say that gretzky had less Talent then Orr? Far be it for me to judge Talent but no player Revolutionized the Word "Offense" like gretzky.
Bobby Orr revolutionized the game far more than Gretzky did, I think, if we're looking at it on the basis of affecting hockey in general right to present-day. There were many offensive defensemen before him, like Pilote, Harvey, etc. but the way Orr played was revolutionary. He really took the concept of the rushing defensemen to a whole new level. He acted as a fourth forward and had better offensive skills than most forwards. He really ushered in the era of the modern rushing defenseman. Gordie Howe even said the following about Orr: "Losing Bobby was the biggest blow the NHL has ever suffered."

Gretzky, if we're talking on physical abilities alone, is not the greatest player ever by a long shot. He admitted himself, "I couldn't beat people with my strength. I don't have a hard shot. I'm not the quickest skater. My eyes and my mind have to do most of the work." Both quotes are from a book, and the author even says, in talking about Gretzky, that "myriad others" were better in those areas than Gretzky.

The problem in debating the age-old "greatest ......." question is what we define as greatness. Is it talent? Influence on the game? The ability to transcend the game? Statistics? I think this is where most of the debate comes from, is how people define greatness, and how it's different for most people.
 

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Badat said:
I've Seen dozens of old Orr games.

So your trying to say that gretzky had less Talent then Orr? Far be it for me to judge Talent but no player Revolutionized the Word "Offense" like gretzky.
First off all, players back in Orr's day were much better than players during the Gretzky generation and even today. Its just common sense. Less teams= more quality players. Only the best of the best played back then. With that said, Orr revolutionized the word " offense and defense" before Gretzky was playing hockey.
 

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I voted for Gordie Howe

Mr.Hockey was a phenomenal player. He wasn't like your normal superstar. He could fight. He also created the Gordie Howe hattrick( goal, assist and a fight)

he played in 1797 games scoring 1850 points. thats over a point per game.
 

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prucha_for_mvp said:
I voted for Gordie Howe

Mr.Hockey was a phenomenal player. He wasn't like your normal superstar. He could fight. He also created the Gordie Howe hattrick( goal, assist and a fight)

he played in 1797 games scoring 1850 points. thats over a point per game.
They don't call him Mr. Hockey for nothing....though can anyone name the original "Mr. Hockey"? (Should be an easy trivia question)

Anyway, I admire Howe's longevity and indomitable fortitude more than anything.
 

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hockeyboy14 said:
First off all, players back in Orr's day were much better than players during the Gretzky generation and even today. Its just common sense. Less teams= more quality players. Only the best of the best played back then.
It's common sense? Really?

If the league increased from (say) 15 to 30 teams without increasing the pool of players from which they draw, then it's obviously common sense to say that the league was better.

However, that isn't what happened at all. The NHL drew more and more from European hockey playing nations. When Orr was in the league, there were a couple of Swedes. No Czechs, Russians, Slovaks, or Finns. There literally just a few European players in the league at the time.

Because a league is bigger doesn't necessarily show that the quality of players is lower. It's only when a league over-expands past the point that the talent pool can support it that you see a worse league.

Daryl
 

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More than 50% of NHL'ers are Canadian, at that time it was probably more like 93%. The point is even though the NHL went to Europe and got some players, it doesn't fill the void for 30 teams that have on average 23 players... Instead of a few hundred, there's thousands of players now playing in the NHL. Players like Aki Berg, Brian Sutherby, Robert Scuderi wouldn't be playing in the NHL 50 years ago.
 

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hockeyboy14 said:
More than 50% of NHL'ers are Canadian, at that time it was probably more like 93%. The point is even though the NHL went to Europe and got some players, it doesn't fill the void for 30 teams that have on average 23 players... Instead of a few hundred, there's thousands of players now playing in the NHL. Players like Aki Berg, Brian Sutherby, Robert Scuderi wouldn't be playing in the NHL 50 years ago.
Every generation has marginal players. Every league has them. Just because you're a marginal player in a 30 team league which draws from a much MUCH larger talent pool doesn't mean you're worse than a marginal player in a 12 team league that really only drew from one country.

Daryl
 
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