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Politics, Religion & other heated debates Two things never to be discussed, politics and religion. but if you must, here is where.

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Old 06-03-2008, 05:58 AM   #21 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by jtkratzer View Post
No, not all things that cannot be explained are chalked up to the necessity of faith...that goes for any religion. None of my posts in this thread were intended to "recruit" as you so put it. I don't recruit, I'm not the ARMY..
About the recuiting, I was refering to the orgiginal topic of the thread starter's story.


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Originally Posted by jtkratzer View Post
And what does technology have to do with religion and faith? Those who didn't believe in a particular religion at the time had just as much difficulty with the daily work of farming and generally in life...what's your point?.
Has everything to do with religion, I'm not talking about technology I'm talking about the scientific method, it's a way to analyze a question or observation to come to the most likely conclusion (plausiblity while no absolutes are known).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

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Scientific method refers to the body of techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge. It is based on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning.[1] A scientific method consists of the collection of data through observation and experimentation, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses.[2]
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Originally Posted by jtkratzer View Post
The same can be said about evolution...evolution is an attempt, a theory, to explain life on earth as much as Intelligent Design and Creationism are. So how do you suggest it be taught? Both sides of the coin contradict the other..
While evolution is still considered a theory it's way more plausible then any of the ''alternatives'' set out there and has more sustanable evidence then wishfull theory based on a book of fairy tales.


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Originally Posted by jtkratzer View Post
Well, on that note, too bad. Most religions have some degree of evangelism and "spreading the word." I haven't seen anything in this thread that constitutes recruiting. I have seen bashing of people who are religious and painting with broad brushes about all people who have some sort of religious beliefs..
Again the recruiting part was about the thread starter's original story.

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Originally Posted by jtkratzer View Post
If you apply your concept of huddling together and letting people find you to everything, just toss out the entire advertising and marketing businesses. Some people need help finding what they need. Some don't know what they need..
And it's again the job of total strangers to tell me what to think say and do? I do believe there are times and places to address these things and a Library has nothing to do with belief recruitment or even questioning someone's belief.

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Originally Posted by jtkratzer View Post
I haven't seen any of this either in this thread. I do want to ask if the Bible is wrong, Christianity is wrong, and all the other religions are wrong and complete fabrications...say we even evolved...who created the concept of social society? Who created the rules of a "civilized" society?.
That would be called social evolution, much like wolves are more socially evolved then the less efficent workings of some other animals.

These rules you speak of are just philosophical rules based on logic, such as *one's rights ends where another one's begin* that's not something written on a stone tablet, it's common sense cuz I don't want to be violated so the best way is not to violate anyone.


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Originally Posted by jtkratzer View Post
This is your opinion, but where did those principles come from? Where did your parents get them from? The 10 Commandments, for example, are pretty self-explanatory and don't need much time for reflection to comprehend their meaning. It's not a fear of sin. It's that thou shall not murder is self-evident, as are the others..
Again it's more common sense about not doing to someone what you wouldn't like being done to yourself, but again you can notice the laws of men differ greatly from each civilizations which points to the lack of one being to rule them all and leaves us with laws of men. Some are similar while others differ greatly.

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Originally Posted by jtkratzer View Post
How far we've gone? How far have we gone? We saw how many millions of people murdered in the last 100 years? We developed the technology to destroy life on earth completely. We've developed a database system to maintain the whereabouts of sexual predators. We still have no way of preventing natural disasters. We have no cure for cancer, Alzheimer's, AIDS, etc.

Look at life expectancy of a man in Europe 500 years ago and look now. We made unbelievable advancement in medecine and continue to do so, we can also assist people in need in a more efficient way.

Besides if there were a mighty being to allow that to happen he's a pretty crappy one.
Is it that he's omnipotent and don't care to do anything? or is it that he does care but can't do anything making him not omnipotent? But yeah when something bad happens it's god works in mysterious ways and it's all us being put to the test and failing while when something good happens it's god's will. Load o crap if you ask me.


I see no point in the self hating.
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Old 06-03-2008, 08:05 AM   #22 (permalink)
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This is your way of justifying the painting with a broad brush.
It is not a justification as much as a necessity. But this is a tiresome aside to the subject at hand and so I shall just allow common sense to prevail

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Part of all religion is an element of faith. If you don't believe in God, Christianity, or any of the like, explain to me how the world came to be as it is. Explain the formation of the earth. There are so many principles in Darwin that are contradictory to what actually happens, it's fascinating that people actually believe in his theories. The same can be said of the Big Bang Theory.
You do not believe in the Big Bang theory?

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On Darwin, for example, if homosexuals have no evolutionary value because they can't breed and create offspring, homosexuals will go extinct as they can't reproduce. Yet, we have homosexuals to this day. That means it's not hereditary and can't be spread through the maintaining of genes and birth.
It is called genetic mutation. Do you believe that cancer is merely a curse handed down from god?

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On the formation of the earth and the solar system...if there is no all-knowing, omnipotent being, how was everything created? Science says energy cannot be created or destroyed...where did all the original energy come from?
The big bang. What came before this bang? We do not know. It is not a bad thing to admit to limitations of understanding, as we are afterall merely human organisms inhabiting a rock spinning its way thru space.

We cannot go beyond the start of time. And yet you presume with the utmost arrogance that the entire universe was created by a god who takes our human form, complete with blue eyes and beard….

I can admit to not knowing everything and yet you cannot. And you claim to be enlightened? Oh my! By the same token…if there is a god, what created him?

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On evolution, science has shown that various stages of what was thought to be an evolutionary process from Neanderthals to cavemen to eventual modern man isn't true.
Indeed there could have been other hybridisations and those descendents we know existed might be indirect cousins, as opposed to prior species of what we are today. Science however has the benefit of review and amendment….sadly religion never allows such scrutiny, preferring blind obedience instead.

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Can science explain how the solar system was strung in such a perfect manner to provide and protect the necessary conditions on earth to maintain life?
Definition of perfect and indeed where there is evidence that any of this preconceived…..

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Can science explain how the intricate and minute details of how the human body is made up?
Of course. It is called medicine. Just coz you don't understand it, doesn't mean it makes no sense.

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Can science explain how we got here if it was not for a Creation?
evolution

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Logic says that the creation can never be greater than the creator. How can something evolve into something greater and smarter than it previously was?
Subjective qualitative name tags like 'perfect', 'greater' and 'smarter' lend nothing to this conversation.

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Again, there's that faith thing you struggle with. If you require scientific explanations and data proving every claim, then you have no faith. If you have no faith, then you don't believe.
Well so much is obvious.

If there is a god (and I have nmever denied that there could be), then obviously (s)he gave me the ability to think and process intellectual input to go beyond kneeling, preying and taking it up the cazoo!

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How do you explain the miracles that happen around the world?
Ah ha…. Miracles, like ghosts, flying saucers and a benevolent USA foreign policy DO NOT EXIST!

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One that sticks out in my mind is the window washer that fell 47 stories and survived? How does that happen? He fell 47 stories and managed not to strike his head...how? Neglecting wind resistance, he was traveling over 120 mph when he hit the ground. Explain how he didn't hit his head, let alone survived.
Simple. This is bull5hit

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Tell your wife she isn't worth protecting as the risk of losing eternal paradise is too great. Tell your children you can't afford to take the risk of protecting them, by giving your life or by the taking of those who wish to do your family harm. I hope they take it well.
They do not need to take it any which way, coz there is no eternal paradise to risk to losing.

With all things considered my bolded text friend…. If what you said of your faith was genuine, you would see the imminent death of those you love as a blessing that they would be getting hurried off into the next life of paradise (assuming they had said their prayers)… otherwise, your determination to keep them here, simply serves to cater to YOUR OWN preference as opposed to 'the will of god'.

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Would you prefer your wife and kids to live long and fulfilling lives and die peacefully of old age or would you prefer them to be raped and tortured on their way to a heinous murder at the hands of another person? Ask them what they want. It's not about what I want, it's what my wife wants. If she would prefer to be murdered, fine. But that's not what she wants and I guarantee that's not what your wife or kids want.
You are being a silly little person. No one said anything about rape or stabbings or torture or anything.... Try to maintain composure. Your faith must be weak for you to employ such efforts to make this emotive.

To respond…. It is NOT meant to be about what YOU your wife, your kids, or your parents want… it is what YOUR GOD WANTS.

Earth is 5hit. This place we are told, is a crap heap compared to heaven. Why would you wish to prolong your stay here, if you were so certain that the afterlife was assurred. Surely a few extra decades of decrepidation is nothing compared to a head start on your next life in absolute paradise.

Or do your fears compromise your faith in such a future?


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Originally Posted by wingsnut19 View Post
How do you know this is true?
I have some knowledge of human nature and the self servings reasons for those acts they claim to be charitable.

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They are worried about others who have not accepted as truth what they have. They feel lost and even depressed over the fact that people close to them have rejected Christianity. These are not selfish, ego-stroking people.
Oh on the contrary, these are very much so selfish and ego-stroking people.

If religion is a personal relationship with a perceived creator, what does it matter that other people fail to grasp what they have accepted?

Theological discovery is a path for each person to take on their own, with any amount of counsel and preaching making only a small possible contribution. Infidels out there know what can be found in a church; can introspect and ask god into their hearts. They don’t need fliers and pestering.

As you said of those you know; THEY worry, THEY feel lost, THEY feel depressed. It is all about THEM! Nuff said as any efforts are merely to relieve these feelings.
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Old 06-03-2008, 11:53 AM   #23 (permalink)
 
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Old 06-04-2008, 06:16 AM   #24 (permalink)
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that cartoon cracked me up too; especially as (and to my shame,) i recall one or two instances in years gone by, where i suspect that had i interweb at home, that might have been me in that picture!

no more however. but in this thread, i am unsure if it correct to assume that opposing sides consider their opposite to 'be wrong'. afterall, matters of theory and faith are hardly definitive....

personally, this subject is intriguing to me as i can see the obvious benefits of erring on the side of caution by expressing a faith in a deity, for the self serving salvation it promises. but with a wealth of facts to the contrary, i cannot see how anyone apart from the genuinely ignorant can indulge in such efforts in faith.

it is this lack of consistency that makes me curious. you might change my mind and in doing so, you might enforce your own faith by contending issues not really considered before...?
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Old 06-04-2008, 02:20 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Has everything to do with religion, I'm not talking about technology I'm talking about the scientific method, it's a way to analyze a question or observation to come to the most likely conclusion (plausiblity while no absolutes are known).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method
The scientific method certainly has its place, but there are things it simply cannot prove. It can't prove where we came from. It can't prove evolution. It can't prove creationism or intelligent design.

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Originally Posted by Æn7ropy View Post
While evolution is still considered a theory it's way more plausible then any of the ''alternatives'' set out there and has more sustanable evidence then wishfull theory based on a book of fairy tales.
I disagree. It is a theory that is hotly debated in the world of science. You can't tell me that we as humans started out as single-celled organisms and just worked our way through history into what we are today.

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Originally Posted by Æn7ropy View Post
And it's again the job of total strangers to tell me what to think say and do? I do believe there are times and places to address these things and a Library has nothing to do with belief recruitment or even questioning someone's belief.
I think the library is a great place to talk about beliefs. Libraries are storehouses of information. Why not have a discussion right there where you can consult books and other resources? This goes for any topic. I don't recruit people to my belief system. I don't go door to door on Saturdays and hand out literature. I have had discussions with people though.

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Originally Posted by Æn7ropy View Post
That would be called social evolution, much like wolves are more socially evolved then the less efficent workings of some other animals.

These rules you speak of are just philosophical rules based on logic, such as *one's rights ends where another one's begin* that's not something written on a stone tablet, it's common sense cuz I don't want to be violated so the best way is not to violate anyone.
But my question isn't about society or the wolves or the rights...it's where did common sense come from? How did enough of whatever species come to the conclusion that something becomes common sense?

What defines civilization? Where did the definitions of what's acceptable in a society come from?

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Originally Posted by Æn7ropy View Post
Again it's more common sense about not doing to someone what you wouldn't like being done to yourself, but again you can notice the laws of men differ greatly from each civilizations which points to the lack of one being to rule them all and leaves us with laws of men. Some are similar while others differ greatly.
Also notice that a lot of these places where the laws of men are drastically different that the most prevalent religion in those areas are also different. The laws in the US are drastically different than the laws in the Islamic nations of the Middle East as are the laws in India with Buddhism as are the laws in Japan with their whole host of religions. Acceptable social behavior and the punishment of those crimes are also all quite different.

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Originally Posted by Æn7ropy View Post
Look at life expectancy of a man in Europe 500 years ago and look now. We made unbelievable advancement in medecine and continue to do so, we can also assist people in need in a more efficient way.

Besides if there were a mighty being to allow that to happen he's a pretty crappy one.
Is it that he's omnipotent and don't care to do anything? or is it that he does care but can't do anything making him not omnipotent? But yeah when something bad happens it's god works in mysterious ways and it's all us being put to the test and failing while when something good happens it's god's will. Load o crap if you ask me.


I see no point in the self hating.
I'm not sure where you're getting self-hate from. God does work in mysterious ways. There are times that the hardest lessons in life are learned through experience. Those experiences are rarely pleasant. It is what it is. There are times when I feel like I've been given something or received something that really is like a gift or a reward.

I don't believe we are mere puppets on a string to a master. I can't explain everything about Christianity, I'm not a diligent enough student of all the aspects of the religion. If I were, I'd probably be involved in ministry.


Just so you know, I'm not trying to convert you, change your mind, win you over, or anything like that. Just having a discussion of views. There are people that will not change their views no matter what. I never make it my goal to change anyone's views when it comes to religion. If that were my goal, I'd be setting myself up for failure. Often with religion, or atheism, people are often set in their ways and it doesn't matter what you say to them.


Politics on the other hand...I love challenging the views of others with politics. There are people who are set in their ways and blindly follow one way or the other, but there are those who will see the light.
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Old 06-04-2008, 02:21 PM   #26 (permalink)
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That is awesome!
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Old 06-04-2008, 03:14 PM   #27 (permalink)
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You do not believe in the Big Bang theory?
I don't. There are too many presumptions and assumptions to start off with for it to plausible on it's own. If someone said to the tune of God created the energy and used what we know as the "Big Bang Theory" to construct the universe, that's a different story. I just don't buy into this assumption that all this energy and matter were just floating around until one day, bang, it all happened. Where did it all start? Where did the first protons, neutrons, and electrons come from? How were the elements formed the way they are? What makes them behave the way they do?

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It is called genetic mutation. Do you believe that cancer is merely a curse handed down from god?
What causes genetic mutation? What is the influence, the outside influence that causes these things to occur? However, it's in the bible where God does cast down diseases, curses, floods, etc.

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Originally Posted by paolosmythe View Post
The big bang. What came before this bang? We do not know. It is not a bad thing to admit to limitations of understanding, as we are afterall merely human organisms inhabiting a rock spinning its way thru space.
Isn't it kind of arrogant to assume that the Big Bang is true when it can't be proven and there are numerous other THEORIES available? Isn't it realistic to admit the limitations of understanding that we can't figure out scientifically how the earth was formed?

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Originally Posted by paolosmythe View Post
We cannot go beyond the start of time. And yet you presume with the utmost arrogance that the entire universe was created by a god who takes our human form, complete with blue eyes and beard….
And there's arrogance is following a religion and stating what I believe? That's new. I guess it's with the utmost arrogance that you believe the earth was formed by this monumental event, which can't be proven, and then mock me because I follow a religion. Remember, we were formed in His image. He did not take our image. It's in Genesis if you want to check it out. (Gen. 1:26-27)

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Originally Posted by paolosmythe View Post
I can admit to not knowing everything and yet you cannot. And you claim to be enlightened? Oh my! By the same token…if there is a god, what created him?
I never claimed to be enlightened. I was simply stating what I believed. I was asking questions about what others believed.

I do not believe God was created.

This sums it up briefly and better than I can:

"If God is a being that is unlimited in time, and if He has access to every piece of time as if it were now, the question of who created God is an invalid question. The problem is like asking a student to draw a four-sided triangle. The terminology is self-contradictory.

When asked 'Who or what created God?,' we are making the assumption that God was created. If God exists outside of time and space, and if He is the Creator of time and space, He obviously was not created! God began the beginning! This is why He says, 'I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.'"

This is an interesting read. Take the time to read it, it's not that long.



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Originally Posted by paolosmythe View Post
Indeed there could have been other hybridisations and those descendents we know existed might be indirect cousins, as opposed to prior species of what we are today. Science however has the benefit of review and amendment….sadly religion never allows such scrutiny, preferring blind obedience instead.
And you say I'm arrogant and presumptive?

Science can also be challenged and contradictory. How many times has a scientific conclusion been proven wrong or not completely correct? Frequently.


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Originally Posted by paolosmythe View Post
Definition of perfect and indeed where there is evidence that any of this preconceived…..
- what?


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Originally Posted by paolosmythe View Post
Of course. It is called medicine. Just coz you don't understand it, doesn't mean it makes no sense.
And why can't those who practice medicine, the best in the world, figure out how and why these things work the way they do.

The design of the human body is a miracle in itself.


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Originally Posted by paolosmythe View Post
evolution
Wow, that's the biggest cop out and laziest answer I've ever seen. Evolution is a joke. What did we evolve from?


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Originally Posted by paolosmythe View Post
Subjective qualitative name tags like 'perfect', 'greater' and 'smarter' lend nothing to this conversation.
In this conversation, they do. Has anyone ever created anything greater than themselves? Have we been able to replicate the brain? Have we been able to duplicate the power of the brain? We are the smartest most intelligent species on the planet and we have not been able to produce anything smarter or more intelligent than ourselves. We built the computer, but it can't learn on it's own, it can't operate without a power source, it doesn't do logic, it can't replace the human being. If we can't do that, what possibly could have created us other than something greater than us?

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Originally Posted by paolosmythe View Post
Well so much is obvious.

If there is a god (and I have nmever denied that there could be), then obviously (s)he gave me the ability to think and process intellectual input to go beyond kneeling, preying and taking it up the cazoo!
Is it nice that we have that ability. Your mocking shows your own arrogance. You should enjoy it while it lasts as the government in the UK may have you limited to this type of lifestyle in the near future.


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Originally Posted by paolosmythe View Post
Ah ha…. Miracles, like ghosts, flying saucers and a benevolent USA foreign policy DO NOT EXIST!
What do you call them then?


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Originally Posted by paolosmythe View Post
Simple. This is bull5hit
What's BS? That you have no explanation? Just because you never heard of it doesn't mean it didn't exist or happen.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/04/ny...=1&oref=slogin
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7172647.stm
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/WireSto...4082765&page=1

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Originally Posted by paolosmythe View Post
They do not need to take it any which way, coz there is no eternal paradise to risk to losing.
You should pray to God that you're right. Good luck with that.

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Originally Posted by paolosmythe View Post
With all things considered my bolded text friend…. If what you said of your faith was genuine, you would see the imminent death of those you love as a blessing that they would be getting hurried off into the next life of paradise (assuming they had said their prayers)… otherwise, your determination to keep them here, simply serves to cater to YOUR OWN preference as opposed to 'the will of god'.
You, nor I, know the will of God. My job as a husband and one day father is to do my duty of protecting them. If I do all I can do and it's not enough, so be it.

Luke 4:9-12:
Quote:
9 And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence:

10 For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee:

11 And in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
I wear my seatbelt because fewer people die in car accidents when they wear their seat belts. I could go without wearing my seatbelt, and if I'm in an accident and don't die, I know it's God will for me not to die yet. But it says, thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

I will do what I'm supposed to do...how things actually play out is out of my control.

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Originally Posted by paolosmythe View Post
You are being a silly little person. No one said anything about rape or stabbings or torture or anything.... Try to maintain composure. Your faith must be weak for you to employ such efforts to make this emotive.

To respond…. It is NOT meant to be about what YOU your wife, your kids, or your parents want… it is what YOUR GOD WANTS.
I'm only going on what you said. I am asking you, would you expect someone who does believe to assume that the person breaking into his/her home is their ticket to a trip to heaven and just allows death to great them?

You obviously don't care why that person is there because you don't believe in said Heaven or said God. So for you, it doesn't matter. However, just play along and assume you did believe in those things. Do you honestly think your wife or kids want to die that way, whether it be "God's will" or not? Maybe God's will is for you to protect them and be the keeper of your own house.

Here is what you said, just a reminder:
Quote:
Originally Posted by paolosmythe View Post
you might think you are protecting your wife and kids, but if the devil sends one of his minions to murder you family, that demon is doomed to hell but your relatives get a quick pass into the heavenly afterlife!

would you really begrudge them escaping this hellish planet if you truly believed in such a heaven?

or are you just sustaining their life on earth (and thus not with the heavenly father) for you own personal gratification?

that isn't very nice now is it?
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Originally Posted by paolosmythe View Post
Earth is 5hit. This place we are told, is a crap heap compared to heaven. Why would you wish to prolong your stay here, if you were so certain that the afterlife was assurred. Surely a few extra decades of decrepidation is nothing compared to a head start on your next life in absolute paradise.
My life has purpose. There is a reason I'm here. I'm not an ant in someone's ant farm just living life. When my time comes, it comes. What I do with my time is up to me. If everyone followed your belief system, we'd all kill ourselves and try to get to heaven as soon as we found out it supposed to be better than here. Pure genius right there. Give us another one.

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Originally Posted by paolosmythe View Post
Or do your fears compromise your faith in such a future?
Your attempts to challenge my faith are really laughable. Quite the joke.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paolosmythe View Post
I have some knowledge of human nature and the self servings reasons for those acts they claim to be charitable.
Here's the all-knowing arrogant one who thinks he has the ability to see our true intentions. My how a little bit of knowledge can be dangerous. Sound familiar?

I guess when I donate money to charities, that's self serving too. No, I don't claim my charitable giving or tithes to the church on my income taxes.

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Originally Posted by paolosmythe View Post
Oh on the contrary, these are very much so selfish and ego-stroking people.
More assumptions and arrogance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paolosmythe View Post
If religion is a personal relationship with a perceived creator, what does it matter that other people fail to grasp what they have accepted?
You really have no clue what ministry is all about do you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by paolosmythe View Post
Theological discovery is a path for each person to take on their own, with any amount of counsel and preaching making only a small possible contribution. Infidels out there know what can be found in a church; can introspect and ask god into their hearts. They don’t need fliers and pestering.
Another wonderful assumption. Did it ever cross your mind that there are people who grow up without ever going to church and know nothing about it? How do they find their way? You seem to know all the answers, fill us in.

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Originally Posted by paolosmythe View Post
As you said of those you know; THEY worry, THEY feel lost, THEY feel depressed. It is all about THEM! Nuff said as any efforts are merely to relieve these feelings.
So, when a family member dies and you go to the funeral...during YOUR mourning, YOUR crying, YOUR sadness, are you mourning because the relative died and YOU will miss that person? Is your mourning all about YOU YOU YOU?

When you give a gift, is it because YOU enjoy seeing their joy, or YOU want to thank that person, or YOU feel obligated? Is gift giving about YOU?

Or is this more of my alleged black and white world? Or is this your world where we don't have be consistent with our views and we can pick and choose how we view things based on how we feel and what are feelings about each and every topic are?
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Old 06-05-2008, 12:18 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jtkratzer View Post
I don't. There are too many presumptions and assumptions to start off with for it to plausible on it's own.
And religious text has fewer 'presumptions and assumptions'?

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If someone said to the tune of God created the energy and used what we know as the "Big Bang Theory" to construct the universe, that's a different story. I just don't buy into this assumption that all this energy and matter were just floating around until one day, bang, it all happened. Where did it all start? Where did the first protons, neutrons, and electrons come from?
But your dissatisfaction at not be able to define the precise origin of everything pre-big bang is simply replaced by questions of the precise origin of god. But the expectation of mere faith precludes any pursuit of this valid question.

And so how can you demand knowledge of the ultimate origin of all we perceive but not of the immensely complex entity of a deity able to fill that role?

Now that is bizarre!

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What causes genetic mutation? What is the influence, the outside influence that causes these things to occur?
Genes are formed from molecules of DNA. These molecules are the 'break thru event' in evolution, as they are 'self replicating'. Ie. They do not simply exist by chance (aside from the very first one of course) but are able to 'recognise' the building blocks they need, to make a copy of themselves.

However, like making fotocopies of copies of copies on a Xerox, some of the detail and quality is lost. Any deviation from the perfect original is a mutation.
These mutations cause the creation of diversity to the extent of distinct species and disease such as cancer alike.

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Isn't it kind of arrogant to assume that the Big Bang is true when it can't be proven and there are numerous other THEORIES available? Isn't it realistic to admit the limitations of understanding that we can't figure out scientifically how the earth was formed?
I think it harsh to say supporters of the BBT are 'arrogant', if they are merely accepting of a theory they think makes most sense.

I have already mentioned the limitation placed upon our understanding of absolutely everything, to the extent of highlighting how theology seeks to defy this 'reality'.

Jt - please, I know we have somewhat passionate debates elsewhere, but it would be nice if we persisted with this one from a fresh beginning.
As I have already said and will continue to say…. I have no right nor basis to suggest that a god, 'your god' doesn’t exist.

It would therefore be nice if you saw me simply as someone looking for answers from people such as your goodself, whilst expressing what I think I currently 'know'. I am not attacking you or your beliefs and I hope I am not seen as doing such.

It would therefore be appreciated if suggesting that others were 'arrogant' etc was refrained from. Its just not 'constructive'.
To this end, I apologise profusely if I have acted arrogantly or have already accused others of being such.

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"If God is a being that is unlimited in time, and if He has access to every piece of time as if it were now, the question of who created God is an invalid question. The problem is like asking a student to draw a four-sided triangle. The terminology is self-contradictory.
There is an indulgence in 'ifs' here. I do not believe in 'infinity'. On the contrary, I believe infinity is merely the finite comprehension we 'intelligent creatures' have at our disposal. Just coz we cannot see and end point, doesn’t guarantee it never ends.

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Science can also be challenged and contradictory. How many times has a scientific conclusion been proven wrong or not completely correct? Frequently.
What you see as a failing in science is in fact its greatest redeeming feature! It can be questioned and rewritten. It can develop just as our understanding and technologies progress to allow us such discoveries!

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And why can't those who practice medicine, the best in the world, figure out how and why these things work the way they do.
Because we are imperfect, in that we are limited in our understandings. Suggesting that a fiction of a god, to explain the unexplainable fails to adequately resolve anything.

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Wow, that's the biggest cop out and laziest answer I've ever seen. Evolution is a joke. What did we evolve from?
How far back do you want to go?

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=T...1TbVS7mt2S8g5s

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In this conversation, they do. Has anyone ever created anything greater than themselves? Have we been able to replicate the brain? Have we been able to duplicate the power of the brain? We are the smartest most intelligent species on the planet and we have not been able to produce anything smarter or more intelligent than ourselves. We built the computer, but it can't learn on it's own, it can't operate without a power source, it doesn't do logic, it can't replace the human being. If we can't do that, what possibly could have created us other than something greater than us?
We have single handedly managed to destroy more of ourselves and the planet we are dependent upon and yet you think we are the 'smartest' and 'most intelligent'.

I see no evidence of what you suggest. And this is straying off topic.

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What's BS? That you have no explanation? Just because you never heard of it doesn't mean it didn't exist or happen.
Touche. I apologise and am grateful for the links. What can I say, some people get lucky;

http://www.newsweek.com/id/90686?GT1=10755

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You should pray to God that you're right. Good luck with that.
Thank you for your wishes of luck, but that makes no sense.

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I will do what I'm supposed to do…
Which isn’t to practice 'forgiveness' as you await ascension? "Smite thee thrice all those who threaten to smite thou"

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I'm only going on what you said. I am asking you, would you expect someone who does believe to assume that the person breaking into his/her home is their ticket to a trip to heaven and just allows death to great them?
Whatever happened to your faith in god's will?

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You obviously don't care why that person is there because you don't believe in said Heaven or said God. So for you, it doesn't matter. However, just play along and assume you did believe in those things. Do you honestly think your wife or kids want to die that way, whether it be "God's will" or not? Maybe God's will is for you to protect them and be the keeper of your own house.
Did the son of god pack heat to defend himself against the romans? Did he passively accept his fate and await the day of his reckoning?
If there is anything to be learnt from the alleged sacrifice your god made of his only son, what makes you think you know better by resisting?

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My life has purpose. There is a reason I'm here. I'm not an ant in someone's ant farm just living life. When my time comes, it comes. What I do with my time is up to me. If everyone followed your belief system, we'd all kill ourselves and try to get to heaven as soon as we found out it supposed to be better than here. Pure genius right there. Give us another one.
Uh, you grow confused. I don't believe in a life hereafter. This is it. I am not so great that my existence has purpose or reason for anyone or thing beyond myself and those who i love and love me.

If however, your system of faith is to be believed thru following any logic and heaven is assurred by your acts, then why would you fear death in whatever form it took?

If everyone followed YOUR belief system, death is a blessed relief (you could kill yourself but.... That would be a sin!)

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I guess when I donate money to charities, that's self serving too. No, I don't claim my charitable giving or tithes to the church on my income taxes.
Do you feel good when giving? There you go then! Good for you.

Entirely selfish; and other people benefitting from your behaviour doesn't detract from the root sentiment that motivates it is solely self gratifying!

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Did it ever cross your mind that there are people who grow up without ever going to church and know nothing about it? How do they find their way? You seem to know all the answers, fill us in.
Where in this entire planet is there not a single place of worship of one god or another. Hell even in the muslim nations i have visited, there are christian churches! They have synogues in iran! The poor uneducated masses are the prime pickings of religious enterprises!

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So, when a family member dies and you go to the funeral...during YOUR mourning, YOUR crying, YOUR sadness, are you mourning because the relative died and YOU will miss that person? Is your mourning all about YOU YOU YOU?
Well i attend for the living. For those who would hope to be there. It makes me feel like i did the right thing. Why do you go?

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When you give a gift, is it because YOU enjoy seeing their joy, or YOU want to thank that person, or YOU feel obligated? Is gift giving about YOU?
I don;t give gifts to anyone. I might buy flowers for my mum occasionally, but only coz i like to be thought of as being a good son. That's it.

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Or is this your world where we don't have be consistent with our views and we can pick and choose how we view things based on how we feel and what are feelings about each and every topic are?
I fail to see any inconsistency on my part. I just perceive your frustration at not being able to explain yourself coherently, without wishing to go off about dead relatives and invisible rapists!
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Old 11-08-2008, 10:37 PM   #29 (permalink)
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I have been reading this thread with much interest as I am going through another faith questioning period in my life. I am a very liberal thinker who has a religious faith. To my way of thinking Darwinism and inteligent design are not mutually exclusive. I also believe that God is more of a spirit than a human. The whole thing boils down to the meaning and purpose of life. I am always leary of those that prosslytize because the rhetoric is all they seem to know. Deep understanding is rarely there. I also detest people who try to tell others what they can and they can't do, based on some religious principle. (this may be argued BUT I am referring to matters of sexuality). The whole anti gay marriage, pro capital punishment and anti abortion movements really irk me. On the other hand I love talking to people about their religion. It is amazing how so many of them are similar in nature.
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Old 12-18-2008, 01:19 AM   #30 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by careyprice31 View Post
assume your life is bad and you must be very insecure person if your not religious like them.

never ceases to amaze me.

Today I was heading to library at university and got stopped by some people who came here to Newfoundland from Alberta, to, they said, walk around and pray for our university and talk to people about God.

I asked them what type of christians they were and they said Evangelics (i have never heard of that denomination before) and they asked me what I believe and I told them I am an agnostic which basically means, I told them, that I believe in the possibility of a god and a non physical beings souls, sprits, angels and so on existing, but that I am not certain if they do exist.

Then they had the gall to say to me Oh we will be praying hard for you, as for the other university students, but harder for you, the lost soul, you must be feeling so insecure and lost in your life . When you find God, they said, then your life will be better. All you need, they said, is faith.

I couldnt believe it. What a patronizing arrogant thing to say. To assume my life is bad and im insecure because Im agnostic? It also , read between the lines, makes them sound like their life is good and they're somehow better than mine and me because they believe.

I have a great life. I have a great boyfriend, I will be graduating in May 2009 with my Bachelor of Arts degree, I have great friends, I have good marks in school.

Any ideas on some comebacks to say to these people who look down on others and think, and actually say it, your life is bad because you are a freethinker?

What can I say the next time that happens?
I agree with this and I'll tell you what to say. Don't pray for me your waisting your time.
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