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**BE-LEAF-ABLE** · 10-21-2007, 01:01 PM

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You can go further and look at the competition that the Leafs have in their Division in Buffalo and Ottawa. These are teams that the Leafs have to play 8 times a year. Thats just plain silly, because these are the cream of the crop in the Eastern Conference. To expect a Leafs team to compete with BOTH those teams at the same time is just not going to happen, so the Leafs lose points right there. But why aren't you making comments about the poor play of the Habs? They are doing just as poorly as the Leafs. They missed the playoffs and did nothing to improve their team, rather they LOST key parts and got worse. So where is the condescending tone toward the Habs organization?

I can't disagree there. I'm not sure if many people notice this, but for the last few years, however bad the Leafs are the Habs haven't been that much better.

I wish Leaf fans were more critical of their team though, 'cause you can tell the pressure gets to Montreal's management, but it doesn't get to Toronto's: Whatever their choices that they make, they still expect to sell out the next game.

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It's easy to tear apart an organization when its down and not doing well, but you have to look past the surface of the matter. This is an organization that has tried to be productive, but have failed. It doesn't mean you need to take whatever pot shot you can at them. I choose to marvel, and yes laugh sometimes, at the teams bad luck. But why rub it in the faces of the fans? It really doesn't accomplish anything. Besides, we're not even 10 games in, and to say the team is doomed to fail already is just ridiculous. Let us at least wait until the 25-30 game mark to decide that.

Honestly, I do find this to be commendable.

As a fan of this team however, I have to say that this team doesn't always try to be productive... or at least, not until recently has it seemed that it's come to mind. It's success is making the playoffs. They never want to make the moves to push the team over the top, and they continually "improve" the team with patch-up jobs.

It's even worse when most of the fans of this team trust in every move it makes. It fails to waive or drop its garbage players as it knows they'll garner a large fanbase, and it does little to nothing during the off-season except hand out pay-raises and no-trade clauses to overrated players.

As for waiting forthe 25-30 games mark... What we're seeing now isn't a shock. It was quite clear before the season even began: This isn't a good team. They made little to no change to the team that didn't do squat last year, yet they have people expecting different results.

Until Gamache was playing, every player except for Jason Blake was in the line-up on last year's non-playoff team.

Also, I'll say that the media also plays a nice role in all this hoopla:

They win, and we should all get up on our high horses and plan the Stanley Cup Parade. They lose, and all of a sudden they point out the problems with the team, despite them existing even in a game where the team wins.

And the fans eat it all up too.

Spelling errors you say?! Never speak of them, or I shall hunt you down and feed you to the cows!!!

**wingsnut19** · 10-21-2007, 03:03 PM

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Originally Posted by BE-LEAF-ABLE

True. Yes, teams do go through struggles. However, when looking at the process in which Toronto ended up in the situation that they are currently in, it's been more due to bone-headed moves by a GM than just "a process". This team shouldn't be as bad as they are, and yet they are.

Again, something every team goes through. There are ups and downs for every organization, and to expect that your team never will have one is just silly.

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That's where I think many fans go wrong. Leaf fans take too much pride in "selling out the building", and such. The end result is the MLSE being slow to act in the removal of a General Manager that clearly shouldn't be a General Manager, or at least he doesn't know what he's doing.

It doesn't matter as much because they are still going to be making tons of cash, no matter how high the ticket prices go, or how bad the team gets.

I think there's a fine line between being a fan, and unknowingly (or uncaringly) bringing about destruction upon your own team.

'Uncaringly' as in it was only just this past July when someone actually told me that they know that fans not attending the games will bring about changes to the organisation, but that they'll still go to the game anyway. It made me wonder how many Leaf fans are maybe thinking the same way, especially with how the attendance will likely remain unchanged for the next few years, despite what moves are made by the team.

I would go to a game simply because I enjoy it, not to show approval or disapproval of management. Fan of the sport, not necessarily of the team.

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I think the media can be thanked for that. This team (and many players on it), has been quite overated for years due to the media and the fanbase which supports it. Bryan McCabe for instance. He scores a goal, and suddenly we forget about his usual defencive mistakes every night for years after he gives us one of his "Made for TV" celebrations.

It's mostly hype, and it's ridiculous. I'm sure you'll still find people defending Aki Berg or Jyrkki Lumme's defencive performances for Toronto somewhere, and of course the very overrated Chad Kilger.

This guy should be on waivers. He is of no worth to this team.

Leafs fans are too hard on McCabe. I watch games, I've seen his gaffs, but the pressure put on him doesn't make it any better. Maurice uses him in bad situations sometimes as well. Like in that overtime game, where he scored on his own goal, why was he out on the PK? If you know the guy isn't the greatest defensively, why are you putting him in a defensive intensive situation? McCabe is a tool, one to be used on the powerplay. Not in key defensive situations like that.

I never hear real fans defend Aki Berg or Lumme, just like I never hear real fans defend Belak. It would be plain silly. And what is overrated about Kilger? He's a utility guy, and he serves that purpose well enough. If you are going to depend on him for a tonne of points in a season, you're setting yourself up for disappointment.

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Names, and only names. Hyped names. I also wanted Kubina, and still think he can play better - because he has shown that he can play well in the defencive zone many times.

He's actually been decent this year in that regard, though he isn't paired with Kaberle as much as I had hopeed he would be... Then again, Kaberle hasn't played that well either.

After Kubina, Kaberle, and Colaiacovo however, things drop off to Hal Gill (who is overpaid like Kubina, and should really be a 5-6 guy), and then free fall to Bryan McCabe and Ian White.

I think that the prospect of having a younger player on the blueline has let White dodge well-deserved criticism. This guy should be trade bait, as he is absolutely TERRIBLE defencively, and for someone his size, he ain't "fleet of foot", if you know what I mean. He only brings offence, a la Bryan McCabe, and that is makes him a liability to the team.

Generally when a name has hype to it, there is some reason for it. But granted it doesn't always work out to focus only on hype, which the Rangers learned in the late 90's. Kaberle will turn things around, its just a matter of when. Hal Gill isn't that much overpaid, he is a defensive defenseman who, IMO, does his job and that's what he's getting paid for. So now the Leafs have 3 good defensive defensemen in Kubina, Gill, and Kaberle, and mix that with the offensive production of McCabe, Carlo, and White, and usually that seems a recipe for success.

I think the coach needs to preach team defense a little better, because some of the defensive breakdowns that I've seen by the leafs have been made starting in the neutral zone, and a full collapse under pressure in the defensive zone.

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I don't think that's it's bad luck at all. If I'm not mistaken, the Leafs brass mis-diagnosed his injury, like Kyle Wellwood. He should be playing right now, but it is because of a questionable medical staff hired by the Leafs. Sure, he gets injured a lot, but he has always played well when he's in the line-up

Ya I've heard some chatter about this, but there isn't any denying the kids production and value continues to erode the more he gets hurt. He should be far ahead of where he is now in terms of development if not for injury.

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Although stats don't lie, they can give miscoceptions in certain situations.

Vesa Toskala has been superb for Toronto, while Andrew Raycroft has played well for the most part.

The 7-1 loss to the Hurricanes and 6-4 loss to the Penguins for instance. Toskala was spectacular in both games, and yet the Leafs still got blown out of the water, or couldn't hold on to a game that they should of had.

The recent 5-4 OT loss to the Sabres is another example. Again, Raycroft played a great game (as many Sabres fans have admitted), but Toronto's defence let him down yet again. Eventually, when the Sabres stepped it up, all Toronto could do was watch as the other team's talent overrode whatever chance Toronto had of winning the game. As for Bryan McCabe scoring on his own net - it shouldn't even have gotten to that point. The Leafs should of had the game in the bag before that ever happened, but their bag has holes.

I'm not talking about stats. I watched those games, I know that the Leafs didn't support defensively, but both goaltenders have had an uncanny ability so far to let in soft goals at key parts of the game. No matter how great the goalie plays the rest of the game, letting that softie in when your team has it close is just not acceptable.

And every teams bag has holes. The Leafs went out and tried to plug two of those wholes: goaltending, and a true offensive winger for Sundin. Those were 2 things that Leafs fans complained about all season long, along with poor team defense. But in a salary cap world, it is very difficult to plug every hole. It takes time, and you guys have only been doing poorly for 2 seasons. Give the organization a break, for ****s sake you guys were in the conference finals just 6 seasons ago.

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Decisions, decisions, decisions. I think that is the main problem with this team. There should be more than Darcy Tucker and Kyle Wellwood on this team, but there isn't. Secondary scoring. This team's goal shouldn't only be to make the playoffs, but to win the Stanley Cup. Missing the playoffs last year was a good thing, as now some fans are even considering the possibility that maybe this team might not be that good.

Secondary scoring was brought in with Bell and Blake. People are so hard on Bell after only one bad season, just give the guy a break. And now Antropov is showing that he can produce, he just needs to stay healthy. So the Leafs top 6 is: Sundin, Blake, Antropov, Wellwood, Tucker, and Bell. I'm sorry, but thats a nice looking top 6. You're never going to have a top 6 full of superstars in a salary cap era. Give this lineup a chance before shooting it down.

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That, and Wellwood's injury was mis-diagnosed as well, that's why he's not in the line-up. The players on this team are here by choice of management. It's there choices that give us the end result, not luck.

Choice in bringing them in, and deciding now that those choices were bad is always easy. When those decisions were made they didn't seem bad at all. Some people just only have a memory for the present, where it's easy to be critical, but forget that they were supportive of the decisions made at the time they were made.

**wingsnut19** · 10-21-2007, 03:15 PM

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Originally Posted by BE-LEAF-ABLE

As a fan of this team however, I have to say that this team doesn't always try to be productive... or at least, not until recently has it seemed that it's come to mind. It's success is making the playoffs. They never want to make the moves to push the team over the top, and they continually "improve" the team with patch-up jobs.

You're talking like this is still the post-cap era. Many teams are being forced to make patch-up jobs, and sometimes it pans out. What moves could the Leafs have made to push the team over the top this offseason? I really don't see it, and I think they did the best that they could with the resources that they have. Bringing in Toskala, Bell, and Blake were good decisions, and filled some holes that the Leafs have. There are plenty of other teams with worse defense than what the Leafs have, they just need to learn how to play as a unit.

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It's even worse when most of the fans of this team trust in every move it makes. It fails to waive or drop its garbage players as it knows they'll garner a large fanbase, and it does little to nothing during the off-season except hand out pay-raises and no-trade clauses to overrated players.

We're talking to different fans and watching different TV stations, because all I hear and see is criticism for the Leafs.

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As for waiting forthe 25-30 games mark... What we're seeing now isn't a shock. It was quite clear before the season even began: This isn't a good team. They made little to no change to the team that didn't do squat last year, yet they have people expecting different results.

Until Gamache was playing, every player except for Jason Blake was in the line-up on last year's non-playoff team.

A team that would have done better if there were not extended injury problems for Wellwood, Carlo, Tucker, and Peca. I don't really see how it is fair to say that the Leafs were wrong in deciding that if those players can remain healthy it'd be possible to be in the middle of the playoff pack.

And what are you talking about little to no change? They brought in 3 players than can make an impact on the team in Toskala, Bell, and Blake, and let go an aging player in Peca who was injured for most of the season, and they hopefully have Wellwood, Tucker and Antropov healthier than they were last year. I do think that this should be a playoff bound team, they just need a little time before fans start writing them off already. I mean, you barely missed the playoffs last year, and made improvements to the roster, and other teams got worse.

Just give it time. Again, if at the 25-30 game mark this team is far below 500, then start your whining.

**Amoroq** · 10-21-2007, 06:24 PM

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Originally Posted by BE-LEAF-ABLE

I still don't see how this means much.

Maybe if Toronto was a contending team and looked like they were improving each year and showing that they stand a real chance of winning the Cup, yeah.

But this means nothing more than using the Leafs of the early 1990's, as many of the players from those teams that made them what they were aren't even on the team anymore. There is no Gary Roberts stuffing pucks into the net, Alexander Mogilny sniping the puck from the top of the circle, Joe Nieuwendyk trying to carry the team on his back, Steve Thomas scoring clutch goals, Robert Svehla leveling players as they crossed over Toronto's blueline, Dmitry Yushkevich and his solid shut-down defencive play, or even a Steve Stavro.

There isn't much in examples like this except to show how good the team was in the past, what kind of players this team now lacks, and the realisation that this team is full of even more passengers, 4th liners and minor leaguers that shouldn't even be on the team, and even more defencemen that can't play defence, rather than less.

As good as those previous teams were, they still had a lot of holes, and rather than reducing the amount of them over the years, Toronto has increased it's amount of them.

They didn't "stink" back then, but they ain't smelling to nice right now.

It means quite a lot when its read in the correct fashion. I was repsonding to the years and years of losing comment. Panoo claims to support all the Canadian teams, which is great, yeeehaaaw I'm patriotic!

The flaws in the Toronto Maple Leafs are pointed out, yet flaws in the other 5 Canadian teams are missing. Makes one wonder eh?

The stats that I provided clearly show that the Leafs have been the 2nd best Canadian team in the last 10 years. Only the Ottawa Senators have played more playoff hockey in the past 10 years then the Toronto Maple Leafs.

I never claimed that I would rather see the Leafs beat the Sens then win Lord Stanley, I was just being factual. Nor do I claim that the Leafs are on the right track. I'm simply pointing out that if one is going to be supportive of all Canadian teams and that also means voicing your displeasure, then they must voice their opinions on the rest of the Canadian teams that have been worse over the years then the Leafs. If that can't be accomplished then just come out and say "I hate the Leafs" and remove the Leafs from the sig and carry on.

**BE-LEAF-ABLE** · 10-21-2007, 06:43 PM

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Originally Posted by wingsnut19

You're talking like this is still the post-cap era. Many teams are being forced to make patch-up jobs, and sometimes it pans out. What moves could the Leafs have made to push the team over the top this offseason? I really don't see it, and I think they did the best that they could with the resources that they have. Bringing in Toskala, Bell, and Blake were good decisions, and filled some holes that the Leafs have. There are plenty of other teams with worse defense than what the Leafs have, they just need to learn how to play as a unit.

It's a team with defenceman that can't play defence, and they've displayed it year after year. It's not just about playing as a unit, some of them really do just suck in their own end of the ice as they will eventually collapse time and time again, as they have shown year, after year, after year, after year, and so on and so forth.

When it comes to pushing the team over the top this off-season: Most of the major damage was caused by JFJ and his no-movement clauses and bizzare contract signings LAST off-season. The defence can't improve much, unless they trade Ian White (as suggested earlier) and drop McCabe to a 5-6 d-man that plays limited time on the ice and is mainly only used on the Powerplay.

And of course they had and still do have opportunities to at least try and drop off dead weight like Chad Kilger and Wade Belak, but won't.

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We're talking to different fans and watching different TV stations, because all I hear and see is criticism for the Leafs.

Yes, only now it is different, which is a first and quite a shock. Missing the playoffs 2 years in a row and not seeing any Leaf playoff Hockey in 3 years is bound to start something, which is great news to me considering the circumstances and how things have gone in the past. Long overdue.

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A team that would have done better if there were not extended injury problems for Wellwood, Carlo, Tucker, and Peca. I don't really see how it is fair to say that the Leafs were wrong in deciding that if those players can remain healthy it'd be possible to be in the middle of the playoff pack.

That's the problem, and somewhat the good of the situation. If those players were in the line-up, they probably would have mad the playoffs... but that's just about it. That seems to be the only goal of this organisation - Playoff money .

It's actually a good thing that they missed the playoffs, and (dare I say it) the wayhtings are going now, I'd prefer that they miss the playoffs again this year. All they'll do if they get there is go in, and fall out in the usual fashion. They aren't much better than they have been for the past decade... they're not even that good of a team begin with really.

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And what are you talking about little to no change? They brought in 3 players than can make an impact on the team in Toskala, Bell, and Blake, and let go an aging player in Peca who was injured for most of the season, and they hopefully have Wellwood, Tucker and Antropov healthier than they were last year. I do think that this should be a playoff bound team, they just need a little time before fans start writing them off already. I mean, you barely missed the playoffs last year, and made improvements to the roster, and other teams got worse.

Little to no change as in not only little change in the roster, but little change in the approach of this team.

Rather than trying to fix up the defence, they get another goaltender (Toskala) and another goal-scorer (Blake).

Then again, they can't do much with the defence since JFJ has pretty much trapped them with for the most part.

Mark Bell... well, if he is an impact player, he's gotta' prove it.

As for Nik Antropov: If it's wait and see with anything, it's with him. I'll leave it until the TD to finally give him his praises, but I will admit that he's playing well... but like I mentioned before, I've seen this from him before.

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Just give it time. Again, if at the 25-30 game mark this team is far below 500, then start your whining.

Wait for what? This is years and years of watching management turn the blue and white into what it is now.

This didn't only start in the 2007-2008 season.

Spasmic Dan · 10-22-2007, 12:18 PM

Actually I think dropping Ian White at this point would be a mistake. The kid can only go up. He's developed a very good offensive presence, is a heck of a passer, and has actually been one of our more clever defencemen in his own end. Kubina, on the other hand, has NOT been particularily clever. This guy needs to get back into his old form and fast.

And I definitely think that with a better team system we would do better, but the number of gaffes from McCabe and Kubina has been pretty sad. Don't get me wrong, I'm not harping on McCabe because we knew what we were getting with him- decent defensively, excellent offensively, prone to bonehead plays.

**BE-LEAF-ABLE** · 10-22-2007, 06:01 PM

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Originally Posted by Amoroq

It means quite a lot when its read in the correct fashion. I was repsonding to the years and years of losing comment. Panoo claims to support all the Canadian teams, which is great, yeeehaaaw I'm patriotic!

The flaws in the Toronto Maple Leafs are pointed out, yet flaws in the other 5 Canadian teams are missing. Makes one wonder eh?

The stats that I provided clearly show that the Leafs have been the 2nd best Canadian team in the last 10 years. Only the Ottawa Senators have played more playoff hockey in the past 10 years then the Toronto Maple Leafs.

I never claimed that I would rather see the Leafs beat the Sens then win Lord Stanley, I was just being factual. Nor do I claim that the Leafs are on the right track. I'm simply pointing out that if one is going to be supportive of all Canadian teams and that also means voicing your displeasure, then they must voice their opinions on the rest of the Canadian teams that have been worse over the years then the Leafs. If that can't be accomplished then just come out and say "I hate the Leafs" and remove the Leafs from the sig and carry on.

Oh, okay.

Pretend I never quoted you man, cause I have to agree there.

**hockeyboy14** · 10-22-2007, 11:54 PM

Anton Stralman is suppose to be in the line up vs the Thrashers tomorrow. I've been watching the Marlies this season ( because they're winning

) and he's been by fair the best defensemen. I honestly think he will be in our line up full time by the end of the year if he continues to play well.

**panoo** · 10-23-2007, 12:29 AM

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Originally Posted by Amoroq

It means quite a lot when its read in the correct fashion. I was repsonding to the years and years of losing comment. Panoo claims to support all the Canadian teams, which is great, yeeehaaaw I'm patriotic!

The flaws in the Toronto Maple Leafs are pointed out, yet flaws in the other 5 Canadian teams are missing. Makes one wonder eh?

The stats that I provided clearly show that the Leafs have been the 2nd best Canadian team in the last 10 years. Only the Ottawa Senators have played more playoff hockey in the past 10 years then the Toronto Maple Leafs.

I never claimed that I would rather see the Leafs beat the Sens then win Lord Stanley, I was just being factual. Nor do I claim that the Leafs are on the right track. I'm simply pointing out that if one is going to be supportive of all Canadian teams and that also means voicing your displeasure, then they must voice their opinions on the rest of the Canadian teams that have been worse over the years then the Leafs. If that can't be accomplished then just come out and say "I hate the Leafs" and remove the Leafs from the sig and carry on.

I don't hate the Leafs. They have done nothing for the last 2 years yet they get all the glory.

The past ten years mean nothing, it's what has happened since the cap was imposed what matters, the league now plays in the "NEW NHL", and the Leafs can't seem to cope with it.

So they made it to the playoffs for 13 rounds, that happened in the "OLD NHL", what have they done since the new NHL was invented?

Excuse me for saying years and years, bad choice of words on my part, I guess I should have said since the lock out, which is really only 2 years, but it seems like years and years.

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I never claimed that I would rather see the Leafs beat the Sens then win Lord Stanley

Amo, I never said this about you to begin with.

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'm simply pointing out that if one is going to be supportive of all Canadian teams and that also means voicing your displeasure, then they must voice their opinions on the rest of the Canadian teams that have been worse over the years then the Leafs

This is about the Leafs, not the other 6 Canadian teams, that's why nothing was said other than about the Sens, because it seems when one is discussing the Leafs, the Sens seem to slip into the conversation, sorry if I over stepped my bounds with bringing them up in this discussion.

**Amoroq** · 10-23-2007, 02:17 AM

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Originally Posted by panoo

"NEW NHL", and the Leafs can't seem to cope with it.

So they made it to the playoffs for 13 rounds, that happened in the "OLD NHL", what have they done since the new NHL was invented?

Other then the Ottawa Senators, what other Candian team has had success in the "NEW NHL" Where is your critique of them?

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Excuse me for saying years and years, bad choice of words on my part, I guess I should have said since the lock out, which is really only 2 years, but it seems like years and years.

Words used on a message board are very important.

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Amo, I never said this about you to begin with.

Correct, you didn't, I was not quoting you. I was quoting Be-LEAF-ABLE

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This is about the Leafs, not the other 6 Canadian teams, that's why nothing was said other than about the Sens, because it seems when one is discussing the Leafs, the Sens seem to slip into the conversation, sorry if I over stepped my bounds with bringing them up in this discussion.

Oh I know its about the leafs, I'm just pointing out and wondering where your critisisms of the other Canadian teams that haven't been much better then the Leafs.

Believe me, I've looked, and all I can see are remarks about how horrible the leafs are and how can they get all the press.

Look I don't care if someone hates the Leafs, or certain players, we all have that in us. But if someone is going to hate a team, embrace it! Be proud of it!!

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