Amoroq

Lets see if this passes the stink test. First let me say the leafs right now and since the lockout haven't been very good. Missing the playoffs 2 years in a row says so.

BUT... Compare the Canadian teams since 1998 and only 1 team has played more playoff hockey then the Toronto Maple Leafs and that team has yet to defeat the leafs in a playoffs. But I suspect that this year they would

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panoo

Yes, they stink!!

And yes, they beat Ottawa in the playoffs, but so have many teams, but Ottawa has grown every year from it's playoff experiences, the same can't be said of the Leafs.

It seems that's all the Toronto brass and it's fans care about, beating Ottawa in the playoffs, big deal, where did they go from there, no where.

Amoroq

So you are going to ignore the numbers and just say that the leafs stink. Must be nice to live in a dreamstate

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panoo

No I don't live in a dreamstate, just to tired to think about numbers!!

wingsnut19

Its amazing that as a team, the Leafs were +9 today, where the Hawks were a -10. I think that someone needs to teach this team to either:
A. stay out of the box
B. kill penalties.

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mikey84

They simply cannot hold the lead, period. How many leads, especially 2 goal leads, have the Leafs blown in the 3rd period this season?

wingsnut19

Question for you panoo: your profile says that you're a fan of all Canadian teams. So, what are you doing making fun of a team that you're a fan of?

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panoo

If it's deserved, that's what I do. This team does nothing to improve itself, and the Toronto fans just keep going to games for a team that hasn't done a thing for 2 full years, and this year doesn't seem to be going any better (so far anyway) I know it's early in the season, but it sure isn't looking to good.

wingsnut19

It's not what you do when you claim that the team is one of your favourites. I'm not a Leaf fan in any respect, but I can at least look at the situation objectively enough to realize that the Leafs have been a successful organization in the past, and that the past 2-3 seasons are a period of struggle that every team goes through at some point.

And what is wrong with Toronto fans going to watch a team that has not had success? I respect fans that are committed to a team through thick and thin. Maple Leaf fans may be hard headed and obnoxious sometimes, but they are arguably some of the most dedicated fans the NHL has. They may harp on their team and their organization, but they have a passion and a love for the game that is commendable, not something to be scorned.

Looking at the Maple Leafs lineup, I don't understand the problems that they are having. It seems to me that the Leafs organization has put together what should be a competitive hockey club. The defense has a mixture of speed and size, yet lacking on true defensive talent. Kubina has not panned out the way the organization expected, but was it a bad move when the Leafs signed him? I didn't think so at the time, because I viewed him as a good 2-way defenseman. You pair him with a solid defender like Kaberle, and things should work out. Unfortunately, things just haven't gone that way, and the McCabe signing just makes things worse, but also seemed necessary at the time.

The D looks bad on the ice, but on paper... things just don't make sense to me. Bad judgement? It would seem to be now, but at the time it seemed like the Leafs were setting up a solid defensive core to work around. So again, we can chalk it up to bad luck.

Colaiacovo was suppose to be a great up and coming defender, and if not for injury he would be. He is better defensively than White, and probably at par with him offensively, so he should be on the team, and he would have quite a bit of NHL experience by now if not for injury. Once more, bad luck, not bad judgement by the Leafs organization.

You look at the young forwards in the Leafs organization in Tlusty, Steen, Poni, Wellwood and Antropov and you start to wonder if the team just might find a way to be productive again. They bring in Blake to support Sundin, which is what many fans agreed was something that needed to happen, and they bring in a goaltender to challenge Raycroft for a starting position by getting Toskala, and bring in a young player in Bell at the same time. Then the Leafs organization is again hit with bad luck. Bell is handed a 15 game suspension for an incident almost a year old, and doesn't handle other cases such as Bouwmeester in the same manner. Bell is coming of a bad year, and I think he will rebound and be productive for the Leafs when he returns. And then Blake announces that he has leukemia, and if you think that isn't affecting his game at least marginally, you don't understand the concept of a life crisis. And now neither Raycroft or Toskala seem to be able to get on their game.

Last year was much the same. Tucker got injured for an extended period of time when he would have hit the 40 goal mark if he were able to play the entire time, Wellwood was out for a good while, and Carlo and Antropov missed extended time. Then they had Sundin out at the beginning of the season, and Kaberle out near the end. Bad luck, bad luck, bad luck.

You can go further and look at the competition that the Leafs have in their Division in Buffalo and Ottawa. These are teams that the Leafs have to play 8 times a year. Thats just plain silly, because these are the cream of the crop in the Eastern Conference. To expect a Leafs team to compete with BOTH those teams at the same time is just not going to happen, so the Leafs lose points right there. But why aren't you making comments about the poor play of the Habs? They are doing just as poorly as the Leafs. They missed the playoffs and did nothing to improve their team, rather they LOST key parts and got worse. So where is the condescending tone toward the Habs organization?

It's easy to tear apart an organization when its down and not doing well, but you have to look past the surface of the matter. This is an organization that has tried to be productive, but have failed. It doesn't mean you need to take whatever pot shot you can at them. I choose to marvel, and yes laugh sometimes, at the teams bad luck. But why rub it in the faces of the fans? It really doesn't accomplish anything. Besides, we're not even 10 games in, and to say the team is doomed to fail already is just ridiculous. Let us at least wait until the 25-30 game mark to decide that.

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BE-LEAF-ABLE

My my my... I suppose I better start at the beginning:

I think it's a little of both. Khabibulin played the night before against the much better Colorado Avalanche. Right now, the Leafs aren't much to worry about because even if Toronto does score 4-5 goals, the other team has enough confidence that they can still have a good chance to win the game.

They're never out of it, because just a little pressure, and the defence breaks.

For the most part, the team is trying pretty hard, but sometimes effort isn't enough if you don't have the talent. With Jonathan Toews, Patrick Kane, and Robert Lang in the line-up, the Blackhawks are an improved team from what they were last year, while Toronto is pretty much the same.

1 team went up, the other just stood pat. Much the case with many teams that Toronto is playing this year, and has played the last few years. Maybe a few different players here and there, but this team's main weakness (defence) is not much better. Only by names.

Agreed. The loss was not Raycroft's fault. He could of perhaps had the long shot by Lang from the top of the circle, but that's just about it. The rest of the goals were the usual that we see against a team like Toronto:

Tip-ins with no one around, lost assignments in front of the net, poor defencive zone coverage where the goalie gets burned, etc.... It wasn't much different with CuJo or Eddie. Changing goalies isn't going to do much , but JFJ thinks so. A waste of money getting Toskala, although he has played very well.

It's time that this organisation stops trying to cover up it's long time weakness, and starts fixing it properly.

Peca was very good on the penalty kill and did his job well. Toronto let him go, but there are other players on the team that could do a good job on the penalty-kill as well, so I don't know if it has too much of an effect on Toronto. I don't like how Sundin's out there though, ut it does work... sometimes.

I totally agree. There's no point in getting those kinds of players if the problem still exists. No offence to Blake and Toskala of course, who have both played well, but it doesn't make a difference out there. Why would it? How would it?

And yes, they should get rid of JFJ. He clearly doesn't know what he's doing.

At first I (like many) was thinking that JFJ didn't really care about what he was doing out there, thinking his job was safe. After a while however, it became quite clear that he's actually trying his best out there, but unfortunately he doesn't know what on Earth he's doing. He should never of lasted this long, but that's what Toronto gets with the MLSE.

I still don't see how this means much.

Maybe if Toronto was a contending team and looked like they were improving each year and showing that they stand a real chance of winning the Cup, yeah.

But this means nothing more than using the Leafs of the early 1990's, as many of the players from those teams that made them what they were aren't even on the team anymore. There is no Gary Roberts stuffing pucks into the net, Alexander Mogilny sniping the puck from the top of the circle, Joe Nieuwendyk trying to carry the team on his back, Steve Thomas scoring clutch goals, Robert Svehla leveling players as they crossed over Toronto's blueline, Dmitry Yushkevich and his solid shut-down defencive play, or even a Steve Stavro.

There isn't much in examples like this except to show how good the team was in the past, what kind of players this team now lacks, and the realisation that this team is full of even more passengers, 4th liners and minor leaguers that shouldn't even be on the team, and even more defencemen that can't play defence, rather than less.

As good as those previous teams were, they still had a lot of holes, and rather than reducing the amount of them over the years, Toronto has increased it's amount of them.

They didn't "stink" back then, but they ain't smelling to nice right now.

Sad, but true. When the Leafs are eliminated from the playoffs, it's always "at least we beat Ottawa". Unfortunately, that mentality hasn't seemed to change much, no matter how little it means.

It's not so much about how the same problems keep holding the team back from winning the Stanley Cup over and over again and how something has gotta' be done, but rather that "they beat Sens".

The "true" Leaf fans just don't expect enough. They just don't seem to want MORE, like some of us "bandwagoners" do.

It is what it is: When the other team puts on the heat, the Leafs can no longer compete.

Same situation as in the playoffs. Toronto went into the playoffs numerous times with a mediocre defence over the last few years - in terms of DEFENCIVE play, not OFFENCIVE production. They are defencemen after all, yes?

And in the end, it was the same result. It was quite obvious to those that actually payed attention to all the blunders and weak defencive zone coverage that the Leafs displayed continuously for years, that Toronto sometimes didn't stand a fighting chance, no matter what goaltender was in net.

When the other team steps up their game, the Leafs have to as well, but the playoffs are a time when a team's weaknesses are magnified, and we saw it far too often with the bunch of passengers and minor leaguers that this team continues to haul along, riding the coatails of the better players on the team while they drag their feet.

The 6-1 loss to the Flyers in the 2003 playoffs for example. Ed Belfour didn't stand a chance, yet some will still let him take the fall for "poor goaltending". Did anyone else even see the goals that were scored against him? It was a a laugh-riot for Philly fans as once again, there was no defence to help him.

That's mainly the same reason why they're losing all these games late - they don't have the players to match or elevate their play to the level that the opposing team usually does.

I think PM said it himself some time back. There are some teams that Toronto just can't matchup against.

That problems lies mostly on JFJ and his bizarre decisions.

True. Yes, teams do go through struggles. However, when looking at the process in which Toronto ended up in the situation that they are currently in, it's been more due to bone-headed moves by a GM than just "a process". This team shouldn't be as bad as they are, and yet they are.

That's where I think many fans go wrong. Leaf fans take too much pride in "selling out the building", and such. The end result is the MLSE being slow to act in the removal of a General Manager that clearly shouldn't be a General Manager, or at least he doesn't know what he's doing.

It doesn't matter as much because they are still going to be making tons of cash, no matter how high the ticket prices go, or how bad the team gets.

I think there's a fine line between being a fan, and unknowingly (or uncaringly) bringing about destruction upon your own team.

'Uncaringly' as in it was only just this past July when someone actually told me that they know that fans not attending the games will bring about changes to the organisation, but that they'll still go to the game anyway. It made me wonder how many Leaf fans are maybe thinking the same way, especially with how the attendance will likely remain unchanged for the next few years, despite what moves are made by the team.

I think the media can be thanked for that. This team (and many players on it), has been quite overated for years due to the media and the fanbase which supports it. Bryan McCabe for instance. He scores a goal, and suddenly we forget about his usual defencive mistakes every night for years after he gives us one of his "Made for TV" celebrations.

It's mostly hype, and it's ridiculous. I'm sure you'll still find people defending Aki Berg or Jyrkki Lumme's defencive performances for Toronto somewhere, and of course the very overrated Chad Kilger.

This guy should be on waivers. He is of no worth to this team.

Names, and only names. Hyped names. I also wanted Kubina, and still think he can play better - because he has shown that he can play well in the defencive zone many times.

He's actually been decent this year in that regard, though he isn't paired with Kaberle as much as I had hopeed he would be... Then again, Kaberle hasn't played that well either.

After Kubina, Kaberle, and Colaiacovo however, things drop off to Hal Gill (who is overpaid like Kubina, and should really be a 5-6 guy), and then free fall to Bryan McCabe and Ian White.

I think that the prospect of having a younger player on the blueline has let White dodge well-deserved criticism. This guy should be trade bait, as he is absolutely TERRIBLE defencively, and for someone his size, he ain't "fleet of foot", if you know what I mean. He only brings offence, a la Bryan McCabe, and that is makes him a liability to the team.

I don't think that's it's bad luck at all. If I'm not mistaken, the Leafs brass mis-diagnosed his injury, like Kyle Wellwood. He should be playing right now, but it is because of a questionable medical staff hired by the Leafs. Sure, he gets injured a lot, but he has always played well when he's in the line-up

[quote]You look at the young forwards in the Leafs organization in Tlusty, Steen, Poni, Wellwood and Antropov and you start to wonder if the team just might find a way to be productive again. They bring in Blake to support Sundin, which is what many fans agreed was something that needed to happen, and they bring in a goaltender to challenge Raycroft for a starting position by getting Toskala, and bring in a young player in Bell at the same time. Then the Leafs organization is again hit with bad luck. Bell is handed a 15 game suspension for an incident almost a year old, and doesn't handle other cases such as Bouwmeester in the same manner. Bell is coming of a bad year, and I think he will rebound and be productive for the Leafs when he returns. And then Blake announces that he has leukemia, and if you think that isn't affecting his game at least marginally, you don't understand the concept of a life crisis. And now neither Raycroft or Toskala seem to be able to get on their game.[/qoute]

Although stats don't lie, they can give miscoceptions in certain situations.

Vesa Toskala has been superb for Toronto, while Andrew Raycroft has played well for the most part.

The 7-1 loss to the Hurricanes and 6-4 loss to the Penguins for instance. Toskala was spectacular in both games, and yet the Leafs still got blown out of the water, or couldn't hold on to a game that they should of had.

The recent 5-4 OT loss to the Sabres is another example. Again, Raycroft played a great game (as many Sabres fans have admitted), but Toronto's defence let him down yet again. Eventually, when the Sabres stepped it up, all Toronto could do was watch as the other team's talent overrode whatever chance Toronto had of winning the game. As for Bryan McCabe scoring on his own net - it shouldn't even have gotten to that point. The Leafs should of had the game in the bag before that ever happened, but their bag has holes.

Decisions, decisions, decisions. I think that is the main problem with this team. There should be more than Darcy Tucker and Kyle Wellwood on this team, but there isn't. Secondary scoring. This team's goal shouldn't only be to make the playoffs, but to win the Stanley Cup. Missing the playoffs last year was a good thing, as now some fans are even considering the possibility that maybe this team might not be that good.

That, and Wellwood's injury was mis-diagnosed as well, that's why he's not in the line-up. The players on this team are here by choice of management. It's there choices that give us the end result, not luck.

(C)

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