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Politics, Religion & other heated debates Two things never to be discussed, politics and religion. but if you must, here is where.
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01-06-2006, 05:28 PM
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#1 (permalink)
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Assistant Captain
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Freedomville
Posts: 4,041
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NDP finally speaks up on the Canadian sponsored Haiti coup, occupation, and massacre
It's not a great proposal, but it is a start, and hopefully this becomes an issue, and hopefully Martin and Pettigrew will eventually be held accountable for their parts in the murders of over 10 000 people, the imprisonment of over 1 000 political prisoners, the overthrow of the country's overwhelmingly democratically elected and socially progressive government, and the media silencing.
When we look back at Haiti's history (for those who care) we see a country that has consistantly been abused by countries such as France, Spain, Britain, and the US, well now Canada can be added to that list (along with Brazil and Jordan). Canada now has the blood on its hands that it has always been clean of and has always been able to criticise the US for. Canada can no longer do that, Paul Martin's name will go down for this, in time.
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Alexa McDonough [NDP Foreign Affairs Critic] has written to the Minister of Foreign Affairs, highlighting the urgent need to evaluate Canada’s role in Haiti, given the ongoing crisis:
-There have been repeated human rights violations against Haitian civilians. “Politically motivated arbitrary detentions, ill treatment, extrajudicial executions, deliberate and arbitrary killings of civilians, rape, death threats and intimidation are routine and are perpetrated with impunity,” and without any challenge by HNP [Haiti National Police] officers, stated Amnesty International in its recent report, Haiti: Disarmament Delayed, Justice Denied. Given that Canada is supposedly training these officers, Canada can no longer continue to defend its ineffective role in Haiti. Canada must take seriously these concerns and either augment its current number of RCMP trainers, or look to other nations to help train the HNP officers so that they may actually protect the very citizens who are under constant attack with no protection whatsoever.
-The UN mission raid of July 6th in the poor neighbourhood of Cite Soleil reportedly resulted in the deaths of innocent women and children. In his recent statement to the Security Council, Jean-Marie Guehenno, the undersecretary-general for peacekeeping, said MINUSTAH, the UN Stabilization Mission in Haiti isn’t trained for raids such as the one on Cite Soleil, acknowledging that, “the forces we have do not have the kind of very specialized capacity ... that makes absolutely sure that there will be zero civilian casualties in a densely populated environment." This begs the question as to why MINUSTAH carried out the raid if it knew such actions needlessly placed the lives of innocent civilians at risk.
-The continuing imprisonment of former Prime Minister Yvon Neptune and the recent questionable arrest of popular priest, human rights activist and government critic, Father Gerard Jean-Juste, following his protest at the Brazilian consulate in Miami, are deeply troubling and raise serious questions about the legitimacy of the current interim government and the acquiescence of Canada in the seemingly active attempts by the interim government to ensure President Aristide’s Lavalas Party does not participate in the upcoming elections.
These abhorrent conditions have led the NDP to demand that the Minister take stock of Canada’s role in the removal of democratically elected President Jean Bertrand Aristide, evaluate its actions in Haiti since February 2004, and re-commit to helping end the violence and restoring true democracy in Haiti. Canada could not possibly be satisfied with its role and achievement to date in Haiti. There has been no peace, no alleviation of poverty, no real capacity building to enable free and democratic elections in the fall, and no justice system to process and convict violators of human rights abuses.
When no response to her letter came from the Minister’s office, Alexa tabled a motion at the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs calling on the Minister, senior department officials, and representatives from NGOs to appear before the committee to answer questions on Canada’s role in Haiti, with a view to correcting the misguided actions and moving constructively forward. Her motion passed unanimously. We eagerly await Minister Pettigrew’s appearance before the Committee so that he may be held accountable for Canada’s actions to date, and, hopefully, commit to do better.
While the NDP is not calling for a full withdrawal of Canadian police officers and aid to Haiti, we are deeply concerned and highly critical about Canada’s role in Aristide’s removal, and in the objectionable lack of security that has led to so many abuses since February 2004 and we consider it ill advised to abandon Haiti altogether. Canada has tremendous potential to play a constructive and responsible role in restoring peace and supporting the evolution of genuine democracy in Haiti.
Canada has professional expertise in police training and electoral infrastructure. When exercised effectively, our presence can help to create the conditions for the provision of basic needs, sustainable development, a legitimate justice system and fair elections. Haiti is currently headed for elections that are flawed. Canada can make a contribution to ensuring that a different path is followed, if there is genuine political will to do so.
Canada must be persuaded to ensure that Haiti is not compelled against its will to adopt neo-liberal policies of privatization and trade liberalization. This includes insisting that the remainder of the $650 million in frozen monies from the Inter-American Development Bank be released, and along with all other foreign aid, spent on genuine development projects that help ordinary Haitians.
The NDP recognizes that it would be exceedingly difficult to advocate for genuine democratic change, in Haiti or elsewhere, by absenting ourselves from international efforts in Haiti. Canada is uniquely positioned to press for this work to be carried out in true solidarity with the Haitian people, resulting in a just and sustainable future.
The solution, therefore, cannot be to do nothing, but rather to do better, and for the right reasons.
The NDP has consistently called on Prime Minister Martin to step up to the plate and give the world more of the Canada that it so desperately needs. On so many critical issues – from the 0.7% pledge on foreign aid to the crisis in Darfur, to standing up for nuclear non-proliferation – this Liberal Government remains at the starting gate, musing about beginning the race. On so many other issues – from promoting biotechnology to the secret support of missile defence, to the Haitian coup – the Prime Minister has delivered a Canada that does not represent the majority of Canadians.
Together, we can hold the Government to its commitment to demonstrate to the world the true values of the real Canada. The federal NDP want to show that progressive policies and good government can make a positive difference in the lives of all Canadians.
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"and rember folk ALEXI KOLOAV IS NOT WAIVERS!!!" - thot to shar this
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Originally Posted by nhldave
It is a dumb thread but it's not breaking any rules.
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01-09-2006, 07:22 PM
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#2 (permalink)
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Rookie
Join Date: Dec 2005
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I thought Canada went to Haiti because Aristide had a rebellion on his hands that he no longer could control and he chose exile himslef because his government had become so corrupt. As far as I know Canada went there for peace keeping, and if you take a look at the numbers peace keeping has never worked, ie. NATO finally bombing the crap out of Bosnia. But I guess conspiracy theorists will always look for things that they can stir thought with.
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01-10-2006, 12:25 AM
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#3 (permalink)
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Assistant Captain
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Freedomville
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Originally Posted by Averys_a_pimp
I thought Canada went to Haiti because Aristide had a rebellion on his hands that he no longer could control and he chose exile himslef because his government had become so corrupt.
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Go check the facts yourself and re-read them. In February 2004 former Haitian soldiers armed to the teeth with American military equipment invaded Haiti from the Dominican Republic. These were men from the disbanded army units FAd'h and FRAPH, these armies was disbanded due to popular demand in 1995. These were the same soldiers who led Haiti's first coup on 30 September 1991 and held the country hostage for three years killing and raping tens of thousands of Haitians.
As for the coup in February of 2004 they began occupying the cities, slaughtering men, women, and children, burning the countryside and killing livestock. Because the army was disbanded the country's overwhelmingly democratically elected leader Jean-Bertrand Aristide asked for international help from several nations including Canada but they did want to aid Aristide and the Haitian people from this slaughter (only Venezuela offerred troops). Only did American and Canadian troops arrive in Haiti on the morning of the 29th of that month but instead of helping the people they occupied the airport and forced Aristide into either signing a resignation letter or to be left to the mercy of the rebels. So he chose to live so he signed the resignation and was flown to the Central African Republic along with his wife. He returned to Jamaica to be reunited with his wife before heading to South Africa where he lives now. The resignation should not be held to any accountability considering the circumstances. It's as if I hold a gun to your head and force you to sign on paper that you will give me all your possessions - if this happens I hold no real legitimacy to your possessions.
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Originally Posted by Averys_a_pimp
As far as I know Canada went there for peace keeping, and if you take a look at the numbers peace keeping has never worked, ie. NATO finally bombing the crap out of Bosnia.
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Of course Canada and the UN say their troops are peacekeepers. The US says they have freedom fighters in Iraq and around the world but anyone can see through that. And this should be no different. Men and women with bullet proof vests, army helmets, boots, and semi automatic rifles are usually not considered peace keepers in any logical person's opinion.
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Originally Posted by Averys_a_pimp
But I guess conspiracy theorists will always look for things that they can stir thought with.
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There is no conspiracy theory. The facts are all there. Aristide overwhelmingly won the 2000 election in Haiti. US Gallop polls in Haiti prior to that election showed that he was going to sweep the election. Even the Canadian and American embassies in Haiti have admitted that Fanmi Lavalas (Aristide's party) would win any fair election if it were held today. And it makes perfect sense. If Aristide was truly not wanted by the Haitian people then the UN would not be having such trouble against a people who are dirt poor and as well armed as a wigga suburban gang in a Canadian city. The UN is armed to the teeth, if the people truly were against Aristide this should have been a cake walk for the UN. And it is hardly a conspiracy theory considering CARICOM (Caribbean countries), all 53 countries in the African Union, Venezuela, Canada's Green Party, 29 US Congressmen and women, Amnesty International, and most importantly, the Haitian people know the circumstances that I just described to you.
No offense but if you are going to make such bold yet illinformed statements I will call you on it. If you are angered by this swarming of facts I encourage you to read up on what happened to Haiti.
__________________
"and rember folk ALEXI KOLOAV IS NOT WAIVERS!!!" - thot to shar this
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Originally Posted by nhldave
It is a dumb thread but it's not breaking any rules.
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01-10-2006, 12:30 AM
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#4 (permalink)
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Assistant Captain
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Oxford, OH
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Originally Posted by Bob Burns
The UN is armed to the teeth, if the people truly were against Aristide this should have been a cake walk for the UN.
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One word: Sudan. 
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01-10-2006, 01:16 AM
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#5 (permalink)
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Assistant Captain
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Freedomville
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Originally Posted by Phish4
One word: Sudan. 
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My knowledge of the current Sudanese crisis is limited but from what I do know the situation is completely different from what is happening in Haiti. In Sudan it is a religous slaughter of christians. But from what I understand the crisis is lessening but I could be wrong. As for Haiti it is the 2% business elite and their mercinary army who are massacring and intimidating the entire population. Different battles...
__________________
"and rember folk ALEXI KOLOAV IS NOT WAIVERS!!!" - thot to shar this
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Originally Posted by nhldave
It is a dumb thread but it's not breaking any rules.
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01-10-2006, 11:14 PM
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#6 (permalink)
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Rookie
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 168
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Honestly I had no idea of what exactly was going on in Haiti it doesn't exactly make front page news (they save that for Isreal). The only knowledge of it that I had was that of which the American media said.
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01-11-2006, 06:44 AM
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#7 (permalink)
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Rookie
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Montreal, Qc
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I think its blown out of proportion by the npd as an election tactic.
I personnally disaprove the libs and pettigrew, but Canada cant be held accountable for deaths not administrated by them. The inaction was from the international community as a whole. Empathy/sympathy is not a duty, its a choice made by the canadian governement for it to be at the centre of its foreign policies, if they mess up, its a shame, but its not an official duty to help nations in need, its a choice. Lets not create more controversy that needs to be created.
All Mcdonough says is that a re-evaluation of our actions in haiti is needed for them to be optimized.
Read Chomsky then come talk to me canadian-american foreign policy comparisons. 
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01-11-2006, 08:27 AM
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#8 (permalink)
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Assistant Captain
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Freedomville
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Originally Posted by Averys_a_pimp
Honestly I had no idea of what exactly was going on in Haiti it doesn't exactly make front page news (they save that for Isreal). The only knowledge of it that I had was that of which the American media said.
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Yeah the media has done a very good job of keeping this story away from Canadians, because if Canadians knew what their government has been doing in Haiti the Liberals would be out of there. And we all know how close to the cbc and ctv the Liberal party is. But there are good sources for information about the situation:
http://www.canadahaitiaction.ca/index.php
http://www.haitiaction.net/
http://www.zmag.org/lam/haitiwatch.cfm
And this one here has a good understanding of the entire situation from start to where we are today:
http://www.outofhaiti.ca/
__________________
"and rember folk ALEXI KOLOAV IS NOT WAIVERS!!!" - thot to shar this
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Originally Posted by nhldave
It is a dumb thread but it's not breaking any rules.
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01-11-2006, 08:45 AM
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#9 (permalink)
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Assistant Captain
Join Date: May 2004
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Originally Posted by fmfranck
I think its blown out of proportion by the npd as an election tactic.
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That is ridiculous. The NDP has been next to silent about the issue, there is no debate about it, it is as plain as day that they have been silent. When was the last time you heard on the tv or from the mainstream press that Layton or anyone from the NDP has made a big deal out of this? This statement by Layton and McDonough barely scratches the reality of the horror that Haiti has become since Canada sponsored the coup d'etat.
To say that the NDP is blowing the situation out of proportion is ludicrous. When the coup originally happened Layton said it was a mistake but since then has been very quiet about it. The NDP, the so called progressive party in Canada, have stood by and allowed Martin to collaborate with world reknown mass murderers and terrorists.
And the fact that you say the NDP have blown this out of proportion is startling considering you put the blame on the NDP for supposedly making this an issue when in reality our concern should be with the 10 000 Haitians that have been murdered and the 1 000 political prisoners and the occupation the country is going through. Considering the living hell that Haiti has become since February 2004, the NDP should be making this a huge issue but they have not. Perhaps that should be the issue of discussion.
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Originally Posted by fmfranck
I personnally disaprove the libs and pettigrew, but Canada cant be held accountable for deaths not administrated by them. The inaction was from the international community as a whole. Empathy/sympathy is not a duty, its a choice made by the canadian governement for it to be at the centre of its foreign policies, if they mess up, its a shame, but its not an official duty to help nations in need, its a choice. Lets not create more controversy that needs to be created.
All Mcdonough says is that a re-evaluation of our actions in haiti is needed for them to be optimized.
Read Chomsky then come talk to me canadian-american foreign policy comparisons. 
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Again, I don't mean to point fingers at you but you need to read more about the occupation of Haiti to make such bold statements as you have. The issue is not that Canada is responsible for inaction, the issue is Canada is responsible for financing terrorist and illegal organizations which ended up overthrowing the democratically elected government of Haiti in February 2004.
Granted you cannot single Canada out for not coming to the aid of the Haitians in the month of February 2004 before Aristide was ousted, but the issue is that Canada did come to Haiti on Feb 29th in the form of Canada's Joint Task Force 2, but not to preserve democracy or save the president, but they initiated his overthrow and collaborated with Roger Noriega among others to create a chosen government that consisted of a Flordia businessman who had not lived in Haiti for fifteen years, Gerard Latortue. And Haiti's Deputy Justice Minister, Philippe Vixamar, is a direct employee of CIDA and was appointed his position in Haiti by CIDA. And as you know CIDA is funded by the government of Canada. Vixamar revealed that the U.S. and Canadian governments play key roles in the criminal justice system, including paying high-level government officials.
And not only that, Canadian police (RCMP) lead the UN police mission, UNPOL, that trains the Haitian National Police! The HNP are the ones responsible for the majority of the 10 000 murders that have happened in Haiti since Canada, France, and the US assisted Haiti's business elite and former army in overthrowing the country's democratic government.
__________________
"and rember folk ALEXI KOLOAV IS NOT WAIVERS!!!" - thot to shar this
Quote:
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Originally Posted by nhldave
It is a dumb thread but it's not breaking any rules.
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01-11-2006, 06:39 PM
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#10 (permalink)
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Rookie
Join Date: Dec 2005
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How many countries would come to our rescue say if Quebec tried to take us over?
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