MaCabe

Debate topic: Patrick Roy is the Greatest goalie in hisotry.

Afirmative: Phish4

Negitive: MaCabe

Phish has one week to post his opening statement.

Guidelines can be found here: http://www.hockeyforum.com/hockeyfor...ide-lines.html

Discussion topic will be established after opening statments have been posted.

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Phish4

"Whether [Roy] is the best goaltender ever is a moot point...because he knows he is."
The Sports Forecaster, 1999
Source

It's a cliché to define the parameters of a question instead of answering it. However, the context of "greatest" leaves much to be desired -- if there ever was a greatest goalie in history, what made him the greatest, and does Roy hold up to this measurement?

Should we look at raw statistics, and declare the goalie with the best career save percentage the greatest in history? That's obviously flawed reasoning. Tyler Wieman would be on the short list, having blocked every shot he's faced on the NHL level (10/10, in case you're wondering).

Are Vezina trophies the best indicator? Up until the 80s, Vezinas were awarded to the goaltender on the team with the lowest goals against, rather than the consensus best goalie in the game. That's not to say that pre-80s winners don't deserve their hardware, simply that the measuring stick isn't comparable -- so how about other trophies? Hart Trophies are far and away more difficult for a goalie to win, but is "most valuable" synonomous with "best"?

Career wins? Any stat junkie will be the first to tell you that a goalie's win/loss digits are dependant on the team in front of him just as much (if not more so) than the goalie himself.

Shall we count Cups? Again, Cups are a team-based accomplishment, and some goaltenders benefit from their teams (while Fuhr was an elite goaltender, was he better than Hasek?) or their eras (Original Six goalies only needing 8 playoff wins for a Cup compared with the contemporary 16).

The idea of the greatest goalie ever is ultimately subjective, not unlike the idea of greatest skater ever, of which three or four can be argued -- perhaps five when 87 finishes his career -- and to quantify the argument of "Roy is the best ever", I stand on three points.

1) There is no single barometer by which "the best" can be measured. Thus, the greatest goalie to play the game must have a number of accomplishments under his belt.

2) What separates the best from the elite is a degree of dominance. Gretzky was the best in the 80s because he dominated. Orr was the best in the 70s because he dominated. By the same token, at the peak of the best goaltender's career, there can be NOBODY capable of matching their accomplishments. Period.

3) What is important in hockey? Highlite-reel goals are great, recognition is great, awards are great. However, what stands far above every other benchmark in the sport is perfectly symbolized by Lord Stanley's mug. What a player does in persuit of that beautiful shining Cup rings far truer, and I cannot stress this enough, than whatever they can accomplish during the regular season or in the record books. Do you think Lemieux would rather be part of the 50-in-50 club and the only player in history to score 5 goals 5 ways, or have his name immortalized in silver for a third time? You're kidding yourself if you think it's the former.

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On all these three points, Roy fits the bill without question. His accomplishments span the spectrum of a goalie's capabilities -- wins, hardware, Cups, all-star selections. Some of his performances are the stuff of legends; nobody during his career came close to the quality of his play in the late 80s and early 90s. And most importantly, Roy retired with the well-deserved aura of the best playoff performer to ever step onto ice.

Is Roy the best goalie to ever play the game of ice hockey?

Ask him...you'll find out.

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MaCabe

Is Patrick Roy the greatest goalie of all time? I think one could make a good argument for this, though I am inclined to disagree. I think that Roy revolutionized the goaltending position that has allowed for greats like Brodeur, Hasik and Luongo excel in the NHL, and I think that Roy may be one of the most successful NHL players of all time, but I think that Roy exhibited weaknesses in his game that others like Plante, Shawchuk, and Brodeur may not have, and he seemed to have accomplished what he did in Ken Dryden situations. I would like to make clear that I am in no way implying throughout this debate that Patrick Roy is anything short of spectacular, but am merely arguing that he is not the greatest goalie of all time.

Roy’s accomplishments are of course quite long, 3 Vezinas, 5 Jennings, 3 Conn Smyths and 4 Stanley Cups. He also has the most Wins, Playoff wins and most games played by a goaltender. This is obviously impressive but this does not really mean he is the best.
Patrick Roy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Terry Shawchuk won 4 Stanley Cups, 3 Vesinas and a Calder Trophy. Also in Terry Shawchuk’s repertoire is the undisputed shutout record of 105, and 7 seasons of 65+ games, verses Roy’s 3. It is also important to note that Shawchuk did all of this with an improperly healed broken arm, no mask, less padding and in a league with no Jennings Trophy. It is also important to note that despite how good Shawchuk his legacy is not a bad attitude to teammates and coaches, like it is with Roy, or an insurmountable ego, Shawchuk’s legacy is one of struggling with adversity and winning. This is not to say that Shawchuk did not processes an ego, it is just saying that the controversy that follows Shawchuk is not the black smudge that Roy has in his premature end on the Canadiens. Some might argue this point irrelevant, as Roy was still a winner in the end, but that merely makes Roy great, the greatest players must be both humble and winners as they realize that their victories no matter how big or small relate back in some ways to the teammates and coaches. Roy’s notorious ego has to be thought of as a crippling factor for his side of the argument.
Terry Sawchuk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Next on my list of rivals the greatest goaltender ever crown is Jacques Plante, the goalie with tons of spirit and chronic asthma. Plante, like Roy, revolutionized the goaltending position. He was both the first goaltender to go behind his net to play the puck and also the first goaltender to raise his arm to alert his teammates that there was an icing on the play. He was also the first goalie to where a facemask after he was hit in the face with a puck one night against the Rangers and came back the next period to play. That aside he won the Vezina 7 times, won 1 Hart trophy, and holds the record for most consecutive Stanley Cups with 5. Plante throughout his career proved that he was able to succeed once again in the face of adversity and is arguable one of the most successful goaltenders in history, his successes back stopping arguably the greatest dynasty in the history of hockey have make his a hockey legend, and his ability to have his face sown up and come back out to play the next period shows a dedication to his team that has to be admired. Though Roy is no slouch in the dedication aspect of the game, Plante, at least I think, can etch out Roy for sure.
Jacques Plante - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now for the more controversial candidates for best goaltender in the history of hockey Martin Brodeur. Winner of three Stanley Cups, 1 Calder trophy, 4 Jennings, 3 Vezinias, 1 Olympic Gold and not to mention already on his way to surpass Roy’s Winning record, and Shawchuk’s Shutout record. Martin Brodeur most defiantly can be argued to be better then Roy. Unlike Roy, Brodeur wasn’t successful with dynasty like talent on his roster, where Roy has players like Blake, Foote, Sakic, Forsberg and Tanguay playing infront of him, Brodeur won Stanley cups with players like Neidermyer, Stevens, and Mogilny and Elias. The talent differential is quite extreme and yet their successes are very similar. One also has to keep in mind that unlike Montreal and Colorado, New Jeresy is a small market franchise. Brodeur has opted to take discount after discount for the Devils organization, and shows much in the area of team loyalty. Another thing that is important to note of Brodeur’s contributions to the franchise is that he does not dominate the team like a Terrel Owens or Patrick Roy, you rarely hear Martin call out his teammates or talk to the media at all. In the end I think the team loyalty once again plays a huge factor between great and greatness.
Martin Brodeur - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

At the end of the day I would have to say that Roy, though an outstanding talent, can not be deemed the greatest goalie of all time. I think he has some of the toughest competition and I don’t think he as a definitive advantage over any of them and if he is not defiantly better then any of them, then it is impossible for him to be thought of as the greatest of all time.

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MaCabe

I think there is a cliché in that stats are is important as the context you look at them in. I think that stats alone are not enough to deem the greatest goaltender in the history but I think they are a necessary part in any argument.

I think Lester B. Pearson awards and Hart Trophies are impossible to ignore. Also Vezina’s have to be considered even if it was the Jeanings trophy in the works prior to the 80s. They speak wonders of the contributions a player makes to their team.

It is true that most would not consider Fuhr better then Hasek, but one has to ask themselves if Hasek were to end his career again I would think Fuhr would be considered superior in the end, like how someone like Ken Dryden is considered better then someone like Johnny Bower.

This is not only true for Patrick Roy but also for Ken Dryden, Dominick Hasek, Grant Fuhr, Terry Shawchuk, Jacques Plante, and Martin Brodeur.

For most of his Career Martin Brodeur could arguably be considered better or at least on par with Roy and then before that Grant Fuhr and Bill Rantford were also storng competitors with Roy. Roy was never a dominate leader in his eras, at least not to the degree that Gretzky and Orr were in theres and defiantly not to the degree that Shawchuk was in his.

In this once again Terry Shawchuk stands at par with Roy and Plante beyond Roy, as a matter of fact I do believe Plante holds the record for having his name misspelt the most on the Stanley cup in NHL history.

I think that Roy may be a biased outlet for his own greatness. Like I said earlier, Roy is a fantastic talent, but I can think of at least three goalies that meet the standard deviation that you listed, and then I can add to their lists. Determination and putting one’s self behind their own team, Plante and Shawchuk total Roy and in considering team loyalty Brodeur beats out Roy. I know that Roy was great, but so were Shawchuk and Plante and so is Brodeur. It is important then to note that since all these guys are so fantastic there must be some division and I think team loyalty and personal humbleness should then become a factor.

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MaCabe

Well can't say I didn't expect this, my arguements were flawless, everyone feel free to apply for another debate.

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